Jesus God's Son

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:53 pm

Luke 1:34-35New International Version (NIV)

â€œHow will this be,â€� Mary asked the angel, â€œsince I am a virgin?â€�

[GOD'S WORDÂ® Translation: "I've never had sexual intercourse."]

The angel answered, â€œThe Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

- The Angel Gabriel seemed to connect Jesus' being "the son of God" with the fact that his mother (Mary) was a virgin. Why in your opinion is that? What could be the connection?

- What in your opinion does the above scripture mean?

Note: The above is addressed primarily to those that believe the bible account; I am aware of the reading that when she said she was a virgin she meant she was not a virgin. or that she was lying and was in fact raped by a Roman soldier. I'm interested in those that have a different interpretation than this.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:33 pm

The holy Son of God would have to come from a virgin. No perfect offspring can come from two imperfect parents.

The scripture says that 'the power of the Most High [Jehovah] will overshadow you [Mary]'.

Unlike an imperfect man, Jehovah is greater than imperfection. So it doesn't matter that Mary was imperfect, with God's protective powers that are inherent with perfection, He can protect His Son from the effects of Adam's passed-on sin that would have come from Mary. In that since Mary's sin that she would have passed on was overshadowed by Jehovah's perfect holiness.

In short, Jehovah's perfection and holiness is greater than that of sin. The way Jesus was conceived makes Jesus a very special human. There has never been anything like it before and will never happen again. Another reason Jesus is 'one of a kind'.

For my Witness friends who'd like to research.
it-2 56, 1020; ia 148; w08 3/15 30; w08 7/1 15; w02 3/15 19; g99 8/8 30

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:34 pm

Fully man - from Mary's flesh and so able to act as a kinsman redeemer.

Fully God - from God and so able to pay the sacrifice. Justice is eye for an eye. No man perfect or imperfect can pay for our sins against God. Only God can.

I don't see how your reasoning overcomes this problem.

It's as if by saying he is perfect and God is perfect so justice is satisfied, but in reality that's like stealing a blue Porsche and returning a blue Toyota. In just.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:37 pm

2timothy316 wrote: The holy Son of God would have to come from a virgin. No perfect offspring can come from two imperfect parents.

Do JW believe Mary is or was sinless?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:19 pm

Wootah wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: The holy Son of God would have to come from a virgin. No perfect offspring can come from two imperfect parents.
Do JW believe Mary is or was sinless?

No. She wasn't sinless. After all she grew old and died. â€œThe wages sin pays is death,â€� says the Bible at Romans 6:23.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:19 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Wootah wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: The holy Son of God would have to come from a virgin. No perfect offspring can come from two imperfect parents.
Do JW believe Mary is or was sinless?
No. She wasn't sinless. After all she grew old and died. â€œThe wages sin pays is death,â€� says the Bible at Romans 6:23.

Well I agree she wasn't sinless but then if she is sinful she is also an imperfect parent.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:44 pm

Wootah wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Wootah wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: The holy Son of God would have to come from a virgin. No perfect offspring can come from two imperfect parents.
Do JW believe Mary is or was sinless?
No. She wasn't sinless. After all she grew old and died. â€œThe wages sin pays is death,â€� says the Bible at Romans 6:23.
Well I agree she wasn't sinless but then if she is sinful she is also an imperfect parent.

I would agree with this assessment. Yet she was a very faithful woman and was 'highly favored' by Jehovah. Despite her sinful state, Jesus still grew up well. "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and with people." Luke 2:52.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:41 pm

2timothy316 wrote: The holy Son of God would have to come from a virgin. No perfect offspring can come from two imperfect parents.

The scripture says that 'the power of the Most High [Jehovah] will overshadow you [Mary]'.

Unlike an imperfect man, Jehovah is greater than imperfection. So it doesn't matter that Mary was imperfect, with God's protective powers that are inherent with perfection, He can protect His Son from the effects of Adam's passed-on sin that would have come from Mary. In that since Mary's sin that she would have passed on was overshadowed by Jehovah's perfect holiness.

In short, Jehovah's perfection and holiness is greater than that of sin. The way Jesus was conceived makes Jesus a very special human. There has never been anything like it before and will never happen again. Another reason Jesus is 'one of a kind'.

For my Witness friends who'd like to research.
it-2 56, 1020; ia 148; w08 3/15 30; w08 7/1 15; w02 3/15 19; g99 8/8 30

How can justice be satisfied unless Jesus is God?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:53 pm

Wootah wrote:
How can justice be satisfied unless Jesus is God?

Hello,

I have come across this though before but have never understood it. Do you think you could try and explain in words why Jesus would have to be God in order for justice to be satisfied?

Thanks so much,

JW

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:10 am

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

It very much depends on what theory of teh Atonement you are using, and there are several in Christianity. By the classical theory, the Devil has rights to rule the world, because people have voted him in. The only way to get him out of the picture is for him to try and overtake, swallow up someone totally innocent and perfect, which can be only God. The minute the Devil tries something like that, he's out of business, has no more claim to the world. By Christ's death, the Devil tried to swallow him up, which is one of teh reasons Christ descended into Hell. Now, since the Devil was clearly out of line here, he lost all his power over the world, and Christ frees everyone in Hell.

In later times, during the Middle ages, the penal-substitutionary theory of the Atonement came into play. It works differently. Accordingly, God has an internal conflict, is caught in a major contradiction. God wants to forgive, but still wants punishment, blood. Now, during the Middle Ages, they used whipping boys. Spare the prince punishment, by punishing a servant. someone else, in his place. Hence, in the [penal-substitutionary theory, Christ becomes the whipping boy. God took it out on him to satisfy he need for blood vengeance and also to forgive. And that meant Christ had to be an infinite sufferer. offering an infinite payment for all our sins.

I don't hold with either theory. I find the penal-substitutionary particularly offensive because it renders God contradictory and unjust.

I view the Cross as a powerful revelation or raising into consciousness of teh fact God is no fair weather friend, that God shares in our sorrows as well as joys, that God is the eminently sensitive one. Any time an innocent man is hurt, God is hurt.