The most important day in the bible: NISAN 14

Where Christians can get together and discuss

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #21

Post by The Tanager »

JehovahsWitness wrote:By means of the ransom sacrifice. This provided the means by which God will wipe out Adamic sin through the Priestly services if the kingdom arrangement.
Are you saying the wiping out of Adamic sin is still a future event? That Jesus' sacrifice is the means that God will later use to wipe out Adamic sin?
JehovahsWitness wrote:The full realisation of the Abraham covenant, as it stands as the first manifestation of the progressive revelation of the Edenic prophecy (Jesus being the primary and the new Jerusalem (produced by the "Jerusalem above") the secondary, part of that seed.
Are you saying the seed of Genesis 3:15 is half Abraham/half Jesus? If so (or maybe even if not), then is there anything humans still must do to enter God's kingdom?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 14468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The Tanager wrote: Are you saying the seed of Genesis 3:15 is half Abraham/half Jesus?
I have absolutely no idea what a half Abraham/half Jesus seed would be; I can't even attach a meaning to the words so I'm sorry I cannot answer that question.
The Tanager wrote:... is there anything humans still must do to enter God's kingdom?
Yes, they must be born of water and spirit (they have to be baptized born again spirit anointed christians).

Are you saying the wiping out of Adamic sin is still a future event?

Of course, yes !


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #23

Post by The Tanager »

Thank you for continuing to help me to see the significance you place on Nisan 14.
JehovahsWitness wrote:Are you saying the wiping out of Adamic sin is still a future event?

Of course, yes !
I'm just trying to make sure I'm following what you are saying. It seems to me that you are saying that Jesus' death was the ransom sacrifice that provided God with some other "X", which God will later use to wipe out Adamic sin. Is that correct? If not, where is my misunderstanding? If so, then what is the "X"?
JehovahsWitness wrote:
The full realisation of the Abraham covenant, as it stands as the first manifestation of the progressive revelation of the Edenic prophecy (Jesus being the primary and the new Jerusalem (produced by the "Jerusalem above") the secondary, part of that seed.
Are you saying the seed of Genesis 3:15 is half Abraham/half Jesus?
I have absolutely no idea what a half Abraham/half Jesus seed would be; I can't even attach a meaning to the words so I'm sorry I cannot answer that question.
I read over your post 20 again and saw that I misread it. Here's my second attempt, although I'm not sure it's accurate either. Are you saying that Jesus is the primary part of the seed spoken about in Genesis 3:15 and the new Jerusalem produced by the Jerusalem above is the secondary part of that seed? If so, could you explain that fuller? If not, could you pre-empt my third attempt by explaining what you meant in a different way?
JehovahsWitness wrote:Yes, they must be born of water and spirit (they have to be baptized born again spirit anointed christians).
What is involved or required to be a baptized born again spirit anointed Christians?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 14468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The Tanager wrote:Are you saying that Jesus is the primary part of the seed spoken about in Genesis 3:15 and the new Jerusalem produced by the Jerusalem above is the secondary part of that seed?


Yes thats correct. Of course they become "one" as they wed but Christ remains their husband and head even in heaven.

Image

...could you explain that fuller?

What would you like explained, it's pretty self explanatory really. I suppose you are alluding to Pauls remark of being baptised into Christ so that the bride also become heirs to the Abrahamic promise or perhaps as why the natural Jews and the gentiles "grafted in" are not subject to circumcision, but (and these are just my thoughts I haven't done any research on this) the promise predated the covenant of circumsion. It is the blessing of humanity, the raising of it to perfection, that sees its ultimate fulfillment in the Messianic kingdom. The other covenants provided the legal basis for the progression to that ultimate aim. There is a symmetry in the bible especially in the Messianic promises dont you think.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 14468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The Tanager wrote: What is involved or required to be a baptized born again spirit anointed Christians?
That is a curious question... I suppose water and holy spirit. I dont know what else to say, ... a willing and obedient heart, a desire to do Gods will. But a heavenly calling isn't earnt or achieved by works its a gift from God. I often think about the 12, they apparently will have special privileges but that's not to say their faith was somehow "better" than all the others. Jesus saw in them the qualities of leadership and loyalty he was looking for and 12 was the number. I'm sure Justus was a fine and loyal disciple but God chose Matthias and that was an end to it.

Image

The first century Christians did a fine job but they were alive in the right place at the right time to be in line for such blessings. I dont think any of the Patriarch will begrudge them that. Not being born again myself, I certainly don't.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #26

Post by The Tanager »

JehovahsWitness wrote:Yes thats correct. Of course they become "one" as they wed but Christ remains their husband and head even in heaven.

Click to view full-size

...could you explain that fuller?

What would you like explained, it's pretty self explanatory really. I suppose you are alluding to Pauls remark of being baptised into Christ so that the bride also become heirs to the Abrahamic promise...
Okay, so the new Jerusalem are Christians? Or Witnesses? Or 144,000 of the Witnesses?
JehovahsWitness wrote:That is a curious question... I suppose water and holy spirit. I dont know what else to say, ... a willing and obedient heart, a desire to do Gods will. But a heavenly calling isn't earnt or achieved by works its a gift from God. I often think about the 12, they apparently will have special privileges but that's not to say their faith was somehow "better" than all the others. Jesus saw in them the qualities of leadership and loyalty he was looking for and 12 was the number. I'm sure Justus was a fine and loyal disciple but God chose Matthias and that was an end to it.
So, one that is willing is willing because God made them willing and obedient? Those people will be baptized, born again, and receive the Holy Spirit?
JehovahsWitness wrote:The first century Christians did a fine job but they were alive in the right place at the right time to be in line for such blessings. I dont think any of the Patriarch will begrudge them that. Not being born again myself, I certainly don't.
What do you mean that you aren't born again? Is that different than receiving the Holy Spirit? Will you not be entering God's kingdom?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 14468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The Tanager wrote:
Okay, so the new Jerusalem are Christians? Or Witnesses? Or 144,000 of the Witnesses?
They have to be Christians because Jesus said one must be born of water (baptised); Christian baptism is in the name of the Father and the son as well as the holy spirit.
The Tanager wrote:What do you mean that you aren't born again?
Just what I said, I'm not a born again Christian. I'm not born again.
The Tanager wrote:Will you not be entering God's kingdom?

No.

At least I've not had a calling (I have heard of some receiving their calling later in life but that is, from what I hear, extremely rare). Anyway, no I dont believe nor do I have any hope of entering God's kingdom
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:17 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 14468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Post #28

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The Tanager wrote:Is that different than receiving the Holy Spirit?
Yes, it is different. The expression "receiving holy spirit" is usually used in scripture in connection with some special gift or privilege (See John 20:22,23; Acts 10:45-47 compare Acts 19:6). While all true belivers can have Gods holy spirit, not all, are anointed or born again of spirit (2 Cor 1:21 ; 1Jh 2:20). The word "anointing" as you know is connected the ancient Hebrew ritual of appointing a king, so the holy spirit in this capacity is being used to choose those that are part of the kingdom covenant. Their adoption as spirit sons of God (in the same way Jesus was adopted at his baptism) signals their being chosen as royal heirs of the kingdom.

I think I know what you are going to ask, how is it that imperfect beings can be adopted as sons of God? Again it comes back to the ransom, thanks to the ransom, God can attribute them a righteous standing, christs blood covers their sin allowing Him to deal with them in a way not normally possible. So the order would be first they are "cleansed" , then they are adopted then then Christ shares his inheritance with them as his brothers (kingdom covenant). They become a new creation, something unheard of and unimaginable before this time, a human with the birthrights of a spirit. A human being called to life in the spirit realm. Its little wonder the disciples couldnt get their heads around the notion before the outpouring.

JW

ps: I have to say it's a pleasure to discuss these deeper topics with you here. I enjoy the debating but sometimes its nice not having to stick only to the elementary topics. How many different ways is there to discuss what happens at death or what is God's kingdom?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
The Tanager
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #29

Post by The Tanager »

I'm trying to make sure I'm following, so please correct my misunderstandings. So, as a Jehovah's Witness, celebrating Nisan 14 means celebrating that Jesus has provided the ransom sacrifice that will one day be used by God to wipe out our sins. In addition to that, some Christians that are baptized (does this have to be a baptism within Jehovah's Witnesses?), not based on anything they do or don't do, are chosen and anointed by God to be a part of God's kingdom as God's spirit sons. Is that where the 144,000 number comes into play? If so, is that number still to be reached? They have/will become a new creation. What about those who are outside of that kingdom? What happens to you and those like you?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 14468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 29 by The Tanager]

Yes wipe out the effects of adamic sin. God already overlooks the sinful acts and shortcomings of those that are repentent, so we are of course here speaking about the removal of all the effects of the original sin so that mankjnd can return to perfection (he that says peperfection says no more of sickness, disease, old age and of course adamic (inherited) death).

I wouldn't say say being born again has nothing whatsoever with what they do. I think what I said was said it cannot be earnt, it not the same thing. Jesus said they have to be born of water ( baptised) so it's not a matter of someone walking down the street minding their own business, thinking about what they will have for supper and BAM God chooses them to be a king in heaven! Lol...(I'm not laughing at you its just a funny idea).

To be baptised they have to be disciples of Christ and to be a disciple they have to have a certain degree of knowledge and have to furnish the effort required to live as Christ did (no they don't have to be part of the modern day organisation of Jehovahs Witnesses since this selection obviously began long before our modern day organisation began) but they would have to be true Christians.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply