New Testament Instruction

[agnosticatheist]

Has ALL instruction given to Christians in the New Testament applied to ALL Christians from when it was written up to the present?

[bluethread]

Slavery is morally wrong, so shouldn't God be condemning it and prohibiting it rather than permitting it?

What makes slavery morally wrong? I am not saying that it isn't morally wrong at his point, I am just asking you to connect the dots.

You keep forgetting that I am not going to have a dialogue with you on this site anymore.

Yet, you keep responding. If you want to leave a question hanging, that is your privilege. However, I am not obligated to ignore your statements, just because you say you will ignore mine. Which you are not doing, by the way.

[2timothy316]

Not ignoring, you're not seeing the big picture here as related to Christians today. That is what you're concerned with right? Or are you concerned with the way of life 2000 years ago?

We weren't talking about 2,000 years ago, we were talking about african americans escaping from slavery in America.

Ah well that is an important piece of information to know.

Also please show the verse that says, "One of the verses tells the reader to teach slaves to be subject to their masters in EVERYTHING." I am quite sure your missing more of the scripture or paraphrasing it wrong entirely.

It was among the verses I originally listed. The verse was Titus 2:9.

Here's Titus chapter 2, ESV: "2 But as for you, teach what accords with sound[a] doctrine. 2 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. 9 Bondservants are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

Yes. There were some slaves in the first century that were Christians and they were to act kindly toward their masters. "not stealing from them, but showing complete trustworthiness, so that in every way they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God." Verse 10.

1 Peter 2:18-25 says, "Let servants be in subjection to their masters with all due fear, not only to the good and reasonable but also to those hard to please. For it is agreeable when someone endures hardship and suffers unjustly because of conscience toward God. or what merit is there if you are beaten for sinning and you endure it? But if you endure suffering because of doing good, this is an agreeable thing to God.

In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously. He himself bore our sins in his own body on the stake so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.� For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls."

Do you understand why slaves of the first century were told to act in this way? God new people were not going to be treated fairly due to the wickedness of mankind. Rather than lash out or turn to violence those treated wrong were to be a shinning example of God's glory by displaying Christ like love.

All of this in no way excuses slave ownership or the mistreatment of people that followed after Rome. Even still the Bible says, “Do not avenge yourselves . . . ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’� “Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.� (Ro 12:17, 19, 21)

Slavery of the 1st century is drastically different from the kidnapping of African people in the following centuries. In the 1st century the commandment to slave owners was, "Also, you masters, keep treating them [slaves] in the same way, not threatening, for you know that both their Master and yours is in the heavens, and there is no partiality with him." Eph 6:9. Even the term slave doesn't mean then what it does now. Accountants and even doctors were slaves in Rome. There were others that given burial jobs but those were slaves because of crimes.

Of course so-called 'Christianity' eventually abandoned these teachings and the horrors of the African slavery trade came about as well as other places. Such things were not in alignment with what Jesus taught. Or any Bible writer for that matter.

[oldbadger]

Not ignoring, you're not seeing the big picture here as related to Christians today. That is what you're concerned with right? Or are you concerned with the way of life 2000 years ago? When people were just being introduced to this new way of Christian thinking.

On the side of the main thread, could your point, about the introduction to new ways of Christian thinking be applied to, say, modern acceptance of hpmosexual relationships, legal partnerships and marriages?

[oldbadger]

What makes slavery morally wrong? I am not saying that it isn't morally wrong at his point, I am just asking you to connect the dots.

.... you're not saying that slavery isn't morally wrong.... at this point?

Why would any moral thinking person need to think about that, or need to keep their options open?

That's rather shocking... isn't it?

[oldbadger]

Do you understand why slaves of the first century were told to act in this way? God new people were not going to be treated fairly due to the wickedness of mankind. Rather than lash out or turn to violence those treated wrong were to be a shinning example of God's glory by displaying Christ like love.

All of this in no way excuses slave ownership or the mistreatment of people that followed after Rome. Even still the Bible says, “Do not avenge yourselves . . . ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’� “Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.� (Ro 12:17, 19, 21)

Slavery of the 1st century is drastically different from the kidnapping of African people in the following centuries. In the 1st century the commandment to slave owners was, "Also, you masters, keep treating them [slaves] in the same way, not threatening, for you know that both their Master and yours is in the heavens, and there is no partiality with him." Eph 6:9. Even the term slave doesn't mean then what it does now. Accountants and even doctors were slaves in Rome. There were others that given burial jobs but those were slaves because of crimes.

Of course so-called 'Christianity' eventually abandoned these teachings and the horrors of the African slavery trade came about as well as other places. Such things were not in alignment with what Jesus taught. Or any Bible writer for that matter.

My goodness.
The Christian prophets were preparing the people to be sheep, easy to manipulate.

But where is the consistency if the religion if it can change its spots with the times?

Dreadful! imo.

[agnosticatheist]

Do you understand why slaves of the first century were told to act in this way? God new people were not going to be treated fairly due to the wickedness of mankind. Rather than lash out or turn to violence those treated wrong were to be a shinning example of God's glory by displaying Christ like love.

They didn't need to lash out nor turn to violence, but rather just escape.

Slavery of the 1st century is drastically different from the kidnapping of African people in the following centuries.

It's hilarious how now you are trying to shift the goalposts once you realized what kind of mess you were in.

How the slaves were treated is irrelevant. What the ultimate issue is, is that both the 1st century slaves and African American slaves were bound to serve without wages, and owned as property. That is morally wrong.

Also, some American slave owners might have treated their slaves decently, but you won't see African Americans saying "Well, if a slave owner treated their slaves decently, it was ok for them to have slaves."

Both the 1st century slaves and African American slaves were bound to serve without wages, and were owned as property, so the verses I listed applied to African American slaves who were Christians.

Of course so-called 'Christianity' eventually abandoned these teachings and the horrors of the African slavery trade came about as well as other places. Such things were not in alignment with what Jesus taught. Or any Bible writer for that matter.

Check the Old Testament slavery codes.

[2timothy316]

Not ignoring, you're not seeing the big picture here as related to Christians today. That is what you're concerned with right? Or are you concerned with the way of life 2000 years ago? When people were just being introduced to this new way of Christian thinking.

On the side of the main thread, could your point, about the introduction to new ways of Christian thinking be applied to, say, modern acceptance of hpmosexual relationships, legal partnerships and marriages?

The Bible doesn't support these things or accept them. Therefore neither should a person that proclaims to follow God support homosexuality as an acceptable thing to do. It's an unnatural use for the purpose one's body.

However, the Bible does say to 'Honor men of all sorts'. In other words if two people wish to harm themselves and ignore Bible morals, then we are to treat them no differently than a person breaking any other commandments. We can show them it's a wrong lifestyle but that is it. We are not to spew hate at them treat them worse than any other sinner. We have all sinned at some point, who are we to judge someone. Warning of harmful behavior is not judging, it's loving. As a true Christian, we want someone to tell us what we are doing wrong. Even if it hurts our pride. It's better to be doing the right thing in God's eye than the wrong thing. Also, there are no instructions in the Bible to get into politics to make laws to prevent such things. Romans 14:12 says, "each of us will give an account of himself to God." Not to any human. So you'll never see a true Christian trying to pass senseless law trying to stop homosexuals from living out their lives as they wish.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 15 by oldbadger]

You are welcome to your opinion. My opinion is that the time spent living by Bible standards is the best time in my life.

[Benoni]

We live in this world but we are not suppose to be part of the world. Worldly people who not know Jesus are worldly carnal people and we sure are not going to change them. It is God who must call them or they do not have what it takes to come.

[2timothy316]

Do you understand why slaves of the first century were told to act in this way? God new people were not going to be treated fairly due to the wickedness of mankind. Rather than lash out or turn to violence those treated wrong were to be a shinning example of God's glory by displaying Christ like love.

They didn't need to lash out nor turn to violence, but rather just escape.

And then what? Get caught and either be beaten or murdered? Jesus promised, if we "observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.� Matt 28:20.

If we don't have faith in what Jesus said, then we can do as we wish and reap the repercussions of whatever those actions bring.

Slavery of the 1st century is drastically different from the kidnapping of African people in the following centuries.

It's hilarious how now you are trying to shift the goalposts once you realized what kind of mess you were in.

I see no mess. I see someone that is not very educated in history and is being hostile towards God and the Bible on purpose. Really my answers are not for you but for others who really do want to understand God's view on slavery.

How the slaves were treated is irrelevant. What the ultimate issue is, is that both the 1st century slaves and African American slaves were bound to serve without wages, and owned as property. That is morally wrong.

There are many things in the world that are morally wrong. There is injustice everywhere. Not just slavery. All of this things will be brought to in an end and soon. It will not be mankind that will do it. They've had thousands of years to try. We've failed.

Also, some American slave owners might have treated their slaves decently, but you won't see African Americans saying "Well, if a slave owner treated their slaves decently, it was ok for them to have slaves."

I don't disagree.

Both the 1st century slaves and African American slaves were bound to serve without wages, and were owned as property, so the verses I listed applied to African American slaves who were Christians.

During the African American slavery trade the 'church' was not under the direction of God. The Bible foretold of a great apostasy in Matthew 13:36-43; Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Peter 2:1, 2. We are still dealing with these apostates today. They call themselves Christian...but really they are not. Much like in ancient times the Hebrews called themselves 'Jehovah's People' but they too became apostates. Read the the first Chapter of Isaiah. In it is a blistering condemnation of the Israelites for their apostasy. It is the same for so-called Christians today who are doing many of those same things the Israelites were doing. Including the mistreatment of slaves.

Of course so-called 'Christianity' eventually abandoned these teachings and the horrors of the African slavery trade came about as well as other places. Such things were not in alignment with what Jesus taught. Or any Bible writer for that matter.

Check the Old Testament slavery codes.

I am quite aware of the Mosaic Law. Did you know that under that law if a master killed his slave that the master was put to death? Did you know that if a slave owner did any permanent bodily harm to a slave that same harm would be inflicted on the slaves owner? Did you know that slaves had to follow the Sabbath (a day of rest) like everyone else? Did you know that if the judges determined that a slave was being mistreated and lost so much as a tooth that slave was set free? Did you know that every 50 years all slaves had to be released?

So yes I am quite aware of the slavery laws of the OT. Are you?

Slavery is made up by mankind. The Law of Moses was not to end it but regulate it. But the Law's main purpose was to keep the covenant of Abraham going as God promised. Jehovah is allowing man exactly what they want' Rulership of themselves. In your opinion, how does mankind fairing? I personally give us an F. The end of all injustice is coming and it will catch many off guard.