Psalm 49

[Wootah]

Psalm 49[a]
For the director of music. Of the Sons of Korah. A psalm.

1 Hear this, all you peoples;
listen, all who live in this world,
2 both low and high,
rich and poor alike:
3 My mouth will speak words of wisdom;
the meditation of my heart will give you understanding.
4 I will turn my ear to a proverb;
with the harp I will expound my riddle:
5 Why should I fear when evil days come,
when wicked deceivers surround me—
6 those who trust in their wealth
and boast of their great riches?
7 No one can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for them—
8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough—
9 so that they should live on forever
and not see decay.
10 For all can see that the wise die,
that the foolish and the senseless also perish,
leaving their wealth to others.
11 Their tombs will remain their houses forever,
their dwellings for endless generations,
though they had[c] named lands after themselves.
12 People, despite their wealth, do not endure;
they are like the beasts that perish.
13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves,
and of their followers, who approve their sayings.[d]
14 They are like sheep and are destined to die;
death will be their shepherd
(but the upright will prevail over them in the morning).
Their forms will decay in the grave,
far from their princely mansions.
15 But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead;
he will surely take me to himself.
16 Do not be overawed when others grow rich,
when the splendor of their houses increases;
17 for they will take nothing with them when they die,
their splendor will not descend with them.
18 Though while they live they count themselves blessed—
and people praise you when you prosper—
19 they will join those who have gone before them,
who will never again see the light of life.
20 People who have wealth but lack understanding
are like the beasts that perish.


line 7 - no one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom

Does this indicate that Jesus (even if a perfect man) also cannot redeem the life of another?

Line 15 - but God will redeem me from the realm of the dead

Does this mean that if Jesus does redeem us then he is also God?

[bluethread]

This Psalm is speaking of the economics of mortality, which those who are struggling with health care reform should take into consideration. Not only is there not a right to "affordable healthcare", trying to enact such a thing is a fool's errand. No matter how much money one has, one can not cheat death. We all get sick and die. Now, there may be some who believe that there is some after life without a deity. However, this Psalm is telling us that there is no afterlife without Adonai.

[Elijah John]

ine 7 - no one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom

Does this indicate that Jesus (even if a perfect man) also cannot redeem the life of another?

Yes, I think that is clearly what it means, as Jesus was a man.

Line 15 - but God will redeem me from the realm of the dead

Does this mean that if Jesus does redeem us then he is also God?

Not necessarily...it is God who does the redeeming, not Jesus. At least in this Psalm, and in the entire Hebrew Bible. The fact that added Scripture (the New Testament) makes a claim that Jesus redeems, does not make it true, especially when said claim contradicts the Hebrew Bible, previous, established Scripture, Jesus' own Bible.

Even the added Scripture (the New Testament) does not claim unambiguosly that "Jesus is God". The closest it comes is calling him "Son of God" a term which should not be taken with pagan literalism. Zeus had literal offspring, YHVH does not.

The Psalm seems to be teaching that the wealthy cannot depend on their riches to save them, to redeem them. No one can redeem another, it has to be God Himself who does the "redeeming" (saving)

So no, I don't see this Psalm as meaning that Jesus redeems by his death and resurrection, but rather it is YHVH God who can, and does "redeem" (rescue, save for His ownsake)

"Redemption" as a concept, is a metaphor, here and elsewhere. It ought not to be taken too literally, or legalistically.

[Elijah John]

This Psalm is speaking of the economics of mortality, which those who are struggling with health care reform should take into consideration. Not only is there not a right to "affordable healthcare", trying to enact such a thing is a fool's errand. No matter how much money one has, one can not cheat death. We all get sick and die. Now, there may be some who believe that there is some after life without a deity. However, this Psalm is telling us that there is no afterlife without Adonai.

Politics of health-care reform aside, a very interesting thing about this Psalm, is that it seems to contradict the common notion that the Hebrew Bible is silent on the matter of an afterlife. (Many Jews do not believe in one).

The Psalmist, at the very least, teaches us what will not surviive the grave, namely riches, and those who depend on them.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

How is one to understand redemption in this psalm?

Clearly not all are redeemed and clearly wealth, nor man can redeem (nor wisdom btw).

Do you think this is a problem verse for JW?

Why can't wise people be redeemed (line 10)?

An interesting line here: 13 thus is the fate of those who trust in themselves.

That is clearly anti works. Would you agree?

Since it is God alone that redeems then why doesn't God redeem everyone?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

How is one to understand redemption in this psalm?

Not literally, as in "buying back" but rather as a metaphor for salvation. Redeemed from the grave, restored to life, in this world and the next.

Clearly not all are redeemed and clearly wealth, nor man can redeem (nor wisdom btw).

I would agree with this statement. I am not a Unversalist.

Do you think this is a problem verse for JW?

Perhaps, but not necessarily. I am not a JW, but it could be a problem..because the Psalm clearly indicates that it is God who does the redeeming. I'm guessing they would answer that Jesus is God's agent, through whom Jehovah redeems, but it is still Jehovah who ultimately redeems. A NT Biblical answer. But not an OT Biblical answer, as the Psalm indicates that it is Jehovah who redeems, with no mention of Jesus, the Messiah, or the Son of God. Direct not brokered redemption.

Why can't wise people be redeemed (line 10)?

Wise people who place their faith in the LORD, YHVH, can be. It seems David was only saying here that we all, wise and foolish alike eventually perish.

An interesting line here: 13 thus is the fate of those who trust in themselves.

That is clearly anti works. Would you agree?

No, because the very ability to do good works is a response to God's grace. I think "trusting in themselves" means trusting in one's power, one's wealth, and yes, even one's wisdom. I think that line is directed to those who do not recognize that everything good ultimately comes from God, and is not self-generated.

Since it is God alone that redeems then why doesn't God redeem everyone?

Not sure I understand the question. I don't think it is a matter of if it is God alone who is doing the saving that He must save everyone. That seems to be a non-sequitor.

Jews believe that all of YHVH's faithful are saved, (including Christians and Muslims) Evangelicals believe that only Jesus' people are saved. Seems YHVH casts a larger net than does Jesus.

[ttruscott]

Even the added Scripture (the New Testament) does not claim unambiguosly that "Jesus is God". The closest it comes is calling him "Son of God" a term which should not be taken with pagan literalism. Zeus had literal offspring, YHVH does not.

Jn 8:58 “Very truly I tell you,� Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!� 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

I accept this is a clear and unambiguous way for Him to say "I am GOD!" part of the Unity of YHWH, and that these people HE told knew what He meant and tried to kill Him for His blasphemy, as many would also do today. If He was not blaspheming why kill Him? If He was blaspheming, what is the meaning of His words that they hated so much?

[bluethread]

Politics of health-care reform aside, a very interesting thing about this Psalm, is that it seems to contradict the common notion that the Hebrew Bible is silent on the matter of an afterlife. (Many Jews do not believe in one).

The Psalmist, at the very least, teaches us what will not surviive the grave, namely riches, and those who depend on them.

Correct, but even if one does not believe in the afterlife, this also goes against the common rabbinic view that preservation of life and health trumps everything else. Quality of life and social order are other considerations that must be taken into account.