Russian Ban of Jehovah's Witnesses

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witneses in Russia a facing an imminent ban which would criminalize all of Jehovah's Witnessses in the country as "extremists". Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide are presently conducting a letter writing campaign to protest this injustice.

CLATIFICATION 2020: Since the ban of the Watchtower Society was eventually passed in April 2017 thread is specifically to discuss the actual charges mentioned in the State procesution papers and the subseqent arrests under the specific charges under Article 282.2 (1) of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation (RF Criminal Code) of EXTREMISM in Russia.

What is your opinion of this move? Should Jehovah's Witnesses be banned from meeting to pray, read their bibles and sing spiritual songs together?

Do you think such a move could be envisioned elsewhere?

If you are non-religious, would you welcome such measures as a move to ultimately eliminate organized religion?


https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by- ... at-of-ban/

[DPMartin]

see Russians aren't all bad. JW's are not Christian though they pretend to be. a qualification to Christianity is to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Son of God begotten of God, JW's deny Jesus as Son of God so JW's are pretenders to the Christian community. in the US they have the legal right to say and do as they please but Russia isn't required to offer the same legal protections.

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Please avoid such blanket statements, ie accusing a specific group of people as not being true Christians. It is not up to any member on this site to dictate who are the true Christians and who aren't. Be aware we have several regular JW members here and we have strict rules about civility.

Please review the Rules.


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i didn't say it, Jesus says it, facts are not accusation are they? if the sky is blue saying its blue isn't an accusation.

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Jn_4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

therefore JW belief is that Jesus isn't the begotten Son of God of God. so what ever they may call themselves, and believe, is fine in the free world, but its not Christian. which is a fact of the matter


also are you saying its ok to bad mouth Russians and Russia in the name of some religion? but its not ok to bad mouth JW in the name of Russia sovereign right to decide who may or may not preach in their territory.

freedom is a responsibility miss representing ones self as something one is not just might be the reason for Russia's concern.

if some one says their something they are not, then surly it is just to restrain that organization. Russia isn't ignorant to the Christian gospel. St. Petersburg isn't called St. Petersburg because they don't know of Christianity. so maybe Russia is justified in their decision. its not that they have a problem with Christianity do they? the catholic church is in full swing there I'm sure other denominations have made head way. why the problem with JW, could it be for the reasons in just mentioned?

[dianaiad]

i didn't say it, Jesus says it, facts are not accusation are they? if the sky is blue saying its blue isn't an accusation. it be for the reasons in just mentioned?

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[DPMartin]

i didn't say it, Jesus says it, facts are not accusation are they? if the sky is blue saying its blue isn't an accusation. it be for the reasons in just mentioned?

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honestly I really don't care one way or the other but it doesn't look good if its ok for you to publically speak and can't stand publically to a response if you want private response maybe you should express your concerns privately

if your afraid of open conversation then maybe this is a site not worthy of spending any time on. do as you please I'll sleep well to night. what is this kindergarten or something?

[Elijah John]

i didn't say it, Jesus says it, facts are not accusation are they? if the sky is blue saying its blue isn't an accusation. it be for the reasons in just mentioned?

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honestly I really don't care one way or the other but it doesn't look good if its ok for you to publically speak and can't stand publically to a response if you want private response maybe you should express your concerns privately

if your afraid of open conversation then maybe this is a site not worthy of spending any time on. do as you please I'll sleep well to night. what is this kindergarten or something?

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[Clownboat]

in the US they have the legal right to say and do as they please but Russia isn't required to offer the same legal protections.

This is true, yet Russia (at least on paper) subscribes to the European High courts that have repeatedly instructed them to respect the freedom of worship they (The Russians) claim to protect when it comes to Jehovah's Witnesses.

Religion is decreasing on this planet. Would we not expect the more fringe types to be the first to go?

Except our religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) is and has always been on constant growth and nothing any dictatorships have been able to do has been able to make us "go". If history is any indication Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia will continue to grow. Not only will we not "go first" we will be the "last man standing" of that I have no doubt.

Not sure why you responded...
Religion is decreasing on this planet and I would think we would expect the more fringe types to go first.

A recent global survey conducted by National Geographic shows that the worlds fastest growing religion is not Islam or Christianity, but no religion at all – atheism

According to the results, atheism is now the second largest religious affiliation in North America and the majority of Europe. In the United States alone approximately 22.8% of the population now identifies as atheist, up 6.7% from 2007. Furthermore, U.S. atheists now represent a larger portion of the population than Catholics, Protestants, and all other followers of non Christian faiths – such as Islam and Buddhism. This was not the case only a decade ago.
https://hackspirit.com/new-study-reveal ... ity-islam/
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/201 ... -religion/

[Clownboat]

Yes I understand you are not directly concerned and this is against people whose ideology you disagree with.

You understand this, yet that is what you chose to respond to?

Why not comment for example on my thought about 'less superstition' on our planet over all being a good thing (or bad thing if you think superstitions are healthy)?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

MARTIN NIEMÖLLER

Perhaps you overlooked these words of mine?
"The idea of a government deciding this does rub me wrong though, even if we could argue that this is an overall good being done in the end." (Me speaking out)

I'll say in a bit more succinctly, I'm against governments making this decision. I also admit that I have not contacted Russia to note my concern. (Me speaking out more succinctly)

I would hope that more people were leaving superstitions on their own accord, but acknowledge that it is apparent some humans have a need to have superstition to hold on to. Seeing this need in some humans, I am therefore against a government outlawing such things (me speaking out). Unless it is shown that harm is being done to others of course.

[JehovahsWitness]

Perhaps you overlooked these words of mine?
"The idea of a government deciding this does rub me wrong though, even if we could argue that this is an overall good being done in the end." (Me speaking out)

Yes, I acknowledge you expressed your disaccord with the measures taken. Maybe mistakenly however, I took your saying you "have no dog in this fight" to mean that you were not directly concerned with the issues raised as the actions were not being taken against you personally or anyone/group with whom you share ideologies.

Further (correct me if I am wrong) I understood your saying that you {quote} "can only hope that in the end these people will be better off " and "an overall good being done in the end" to mean that however ethical or morally distatasteful the methods of the Russian government are to you, you hope that at the very lease there may be a positive END RESULT, for the victims (once they are out of prison, and their minds and bodies recovered from any beatings, rapes etc they may be submitted to...) that they finally abandon their faith (ie what you see as "religious supertitions") so that something "good" comes out of the evil.

Please forgive me if I misunderstood or misrepresented your view.

I am therefore against a government outlawing such things (me speaking out). Unless it is shown that harm is being done to others of course.

Duly noted.


JW

[Clownboat]

Further (correct me if I am wrong) I understood your saying that you {quote} "can only hope that in the end these people will be better off "

Corrrect. I would hope that any person on this planet that loses their superstitious beliefs will be better off.

and "an overall good being done in the end" to mean that however ethical or morally distatasteful the methods of the Russian government are to you, you hope that at the very lease there may be a positive END RESULT, for the victims (once they are out of prison, and their minds and bodies recovered from any beatings, rapes etc they may be submitted to...) that they finally abandon their faith (ie what you see as "religious supertitions") so that something "good" comes out of the evil.

Yes, I hope for an overall good to be done in the end if this continues. I would feel sorry for any person that is beaten or raped over it, but would also hope that in the end they would be better off, perferably without being beaten, raped or after having their babies fed to them of course. Keep in mind that many would be free from their superstitions without having been beaten or raped.

To be clear, my hope is that humanity continues this trend of losing superstitions. I do not advocate beating nor raping for this to happen, nor do I personally feel that governments should be involved (unless harm is being done, then possibly).

Perhaps you can attempt to elighten me about the benefits of superstitious beliefs for the humans on this planet? There are about 24 major god concepts and roughly 100 minor deities and spirits worshiped on this planet currently. Would the world be better off if both of those numbers were to increase? I would really love your thoughts on this and perhaps it might help you understand where I'm coming from.

[JehovahsWitness]

. I would feel sorry for any person that is beaten or raped over it, but would also hope that in the end they would be better off ...

Duly noted. Thank you for your input. I feel your compassion and appreciate your expressing your thoughts on the subject. I cannot say I would take the same position were it your wife or daughter but respect your right to say how you feel about what our own wives, children and old folk are experiencing.


JW

[historia]

Religion is decreasing on this planet.

This is simply mistaken. Religious adherence has been on the increase worldwide since the 1970s.

A recent global survey conducted by National Geographic shows that the worlds fastest growing religion is not Islam or Christianity, but no religion at all – atheism

According to the results, atheism is now the second largest religious affiliation in North America and the majority of Europe. In the United States alone approximately 22.8% of the population now identifies as atheist, up 6.7% from 2007. Furthermore, U.S. atheists now represent a larger portion of the population than Catholics, Protestants, and all other followers of non Christian faiths – such as Islam and Buddhism. This was not the case only a decade ago.
https://hackspirit.com/new-study-reveal ... ity-islam/
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/201 ... -religion/

These articles not only don't support the assertion that religion is decreasing on this planet, they actually say the exact opposite. Perhaps you just didn't read them carefully?