Instead of having a god who punishes sinners and condemns them to hell which is sure to stir up hate and rejection of his fellow human creations, then why not allow these sinners to live in selfish sin all they want to until they eventually grow tired of it and change out of boredom? That would be a much better solution here then forcefully imposing upon these people's ways of living. I say, allow them to be hedonistic all they want and let them have all the "me" time all they want until they eventually grow tired of it and decide to finally serve god, help others, etc. Therefore, why can't this better solution be implemented? Why must sinners be punished and condemned?
If a parent punishes a child time and time again and this child never learns and is still rebellious, then the best thing to do here would be to give up on that child and leave that child to his/her own selfish lifestyle until one day the child grows tired of it and decides to change for the better.
A better way to convert sinners
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- The Transcended Omniverse
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Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #2Isn't that the lesson of the parable of the Prodigal Son?The Transcended Omniverse wrote:
If a parent punishes a child time and time again and this child never learns and is still rebellious, then the best thing to do here would be to give up on that child and leave that child to his/her own selfish lifestyle until one day the child grows tired of it and decides to change for the better.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
- ttruscott
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Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #3There is only one doctrine I can think of that makes this impossible, stronger even that HE just didn't want to do it this way: as an addiction, sin always gets stronger and they will never get bored with it...The Transcended Omniverse wrote: Instead of having a god who punishes sinners and condemns them to hell which is sure to stir up hate and rejection of his fellow human creations, then why not allow these sinners to live in selfish sin all they want to until they eventually grow tired of it and change out of boredom?
Exodus 12:15 For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel. This verse is about the exodus, the physical representation of our personal flight from slavery to sin unto holiness, ie living in the promised land of salvation.
So what is it with leaven? Its metaphoric value lies in it intrinsic nature: Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Leaven refers to sin and wrong doctrine. So this verse may be read, "A little sin corrupts the whole person, city, nation etc." It is a characteristic that a tiny bit of leaven in a batch of dough will sooner or later be enough to influence the whole batch which as a metaphor for evil, 1 Corinthians 5:5-7, suggests if any tiny bit of evil survives, sooner or later it will corrupt all of reality even heaven.
Therefore the need to banish or evict all evil people, those who could not be saved from their choice to be evil because they rejected GOD's offer of salvation, to the outer darkness, that is, to outside of all of created reality, is an absolute theological necessity. That the prospects of their forming a society there while they live forever fully given to selfish sin is highly unlikely.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
- ttruscott
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Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #4The prodigal son is not just anyone but only those who are under HIS promise of salvation...a true son.Elijah John wrote:Isn't that the lesson of the parable of the Prodigal Son?The Transcended Omniverse wrote:
If a parent punishes a child time and time again and this child never learns and is still rebellious, then the best thing to do here would be to give up on that child and leave that child to his/her own selfish lifestyle until one day the child grows tired of it and decides to change for the better.
Sin City which the prodigal left behind will never be welcomed by the Father. And the son did not bring with him any of his old playmates. Was the city named Sodom or Gomorrah? Remember the prodigal Lot and his wife?
In other words, yes, legitimate sons can be rehabbed by painful discipline and become righteous, Heb 12:5-11, but TTO is referring to the rehabilitation of those in hell, those not sons, which is impossible except by the grace of GOD which they have eternally rejected.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #5And what would you suggest that the people do who wanted to do right by God and their fellow man? How would THEY avoid being victims of the hedonists that were allowed to do their own thing?The Transcended Omniverse wrote: Instead of having a god who punishes sinners and condemns them to hell which is sure to stir up hate and rejection of his fellow human creations, then why not allow these sinners to live in selfish sin all they want to until they eventually grow tired of it and change out of boredom? That would be a much better solution here then forcefully imposing upon these people's ways of living. I say, allow them to be hedonistic all they want and let them have all the "me" time all they want until they eventually grow tired of it and decide to finally serve god, help others, etc. Therefore, why can't this better solution be implemented? Why must sinners be punished and condemned?
If a parent punishes a child time and time again and this child never learns and is still rebellious, then the best thing to do here would be to give up on that child and leave that child to his/her own selfish lifestyle until one day the child grows tired of it and decides to change for the better.
Second question: Why do you assume that eventually those hedonists would grow bored with their treachery and change? I submit that God knows better, and people who are evil will not change.
"Though the wicked is shown favor, he does not learn righteousness; he deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, and does not perceive the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10, NASB)
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Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #6[Replying to onewithhim]
If evil and selfish people cannot change according to you, then why should God even bother trying to convert and punish these sinners in the first place? The fact he does so proves that these people are capable of changing. With that being said, it would be unnecessary to change people this way. Just allow them to be hedonists all they want to until they grow bored and change on their own.
If evil and selfish people cannot change according to you, then why should God even bother trying to convert and punish these sinners in the first place? The fact he does so proves that these people are capable of changing. With that being said, it would be unnecessary to change people this way. Just allow them to be hedonists all they want to until they grow bored and change on their own.
Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #7[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]
You're conflating hedonism with a lack of belief.The Transcended Omniverse wrote:
I say, allow them to be hedonistic all they want and let them have all the "me" time all they want until they eventually grow tired of it and decide to finally serve god, help others, etc.
Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #8[Replying to post 5 by onewithhim]
[center]
Seeking pleasure, or thinking that pleasure is the highest good does NOT imply victimization. [/center]
I don't have a problem with that.. do you?
It means "the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life."
There is no need to conflate hedonism with selfishness.
I challenge the assertion hedonism implies victimization.
[center]
Seeking pleasure, or thinking that pleasure is the highest good does NOT imply victimization. [/center]
Hedonism doesn't victimize anyone. It's about people feeling as good as they can.onewithhim wrote:
How would THEY avoid being victims of the hedonists that were allowed to do their own thing?
I don't have a problem with that.. do you?
It means "the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life."
There is no need to conflate hedonism with selfishness.
I challenge the assertion hedonism implies victimization.
Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #9[Replying to post 6 by The Transcended Omniverse]
[center]
Suffering for Jesus[/center]
Do you think it's less boring to suffer?
Go right ahead, suffer all you like.
Do you hope to go to heaven?
Any suffering there? ... no?
Then you will be bored eternally.
In Hell, not so boring, if that's your concern.
[center]
Suffering for Jesus[/center]
Why oh why would I EVER get tired of feeling as good as I possibly can?The Transcended Omniverse wrote: Just allow them to be hedonists all they want to until they grow bored and change on their own.
Do you think it's less boring to suffer?
Go right ahead, suffer all you like.
Do you hope to go to heaven?
Any suffering there? ... no?
Then you will be bored eternally.
In Hell, not so boring, if that's your concern.
- ttruscott
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Re: A better way to convert sinners
Post #10Not necessarily - HE might be trying to spur on those that can be converted by showing them how there are some who will never accept conversion or repentance and so must be left behind no matter how much we personally like them.The Transcended Omniverse wrote: [Replying to onewithhim]
If evil and selfish people cannot change according to you, then why should God even bother trying to convert and punish these sinners in the first place? The fact he does so proves that these people are capable of changing.
The judgement of the tares was withheld to protect the sinful good seed and the sinful elect will only ever accept that judgement as righteous when they see that the full and honest offer to the tares of salvation is truly scorned.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.