God's love and justice is that of a sociopath's

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I will talk about the claimed love and justice of the Christian God and other religious based Gods like him. If someone was very kind and altruistic and was cast out into hell on judgment day since this individual did not obey God's commandments and/or did not believe in him, then to say that an all loving and all just God would do that would actually not be real love and justice at all. Rather, it would be the love and justice of a sociopath.

God had his son sacrificed for our sins so that we could repent and believe on him in order for us to be saved from his condemning statement upon judgment day which says:

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

God's/Jesus' sacrifice would not be that of true love. Rather, it would be no different than if a sociopath did something wonderful for you such as a sacrifice and that you would get to be welcomed into his heavenly kingdom, but only on one condition. You must repent, obey, and serve him or face the wrath of this psychopath/sociopath who will condemn you into eternal hell.

It doesn't matter how nice or kind of a person you are. This sociopath will condemn you to hell for not obeying, serving, believing, and dedicating your life to him. He demands obedience without having any empathy towards human dignity or towards anyone who lived their lives in a very compassionate and respectful manner.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]

I take it for the sake of argument God exists, and in God we are speaking of the God of the bible (feel free to correct any detail above)

If so, I do not agree, the evidence in scripture is that JEHOVAH (YHWH, the name of the God of the bible) is both loving and just and has manifest his generosity both in creation and in his purpose for mankind.

Hell doesn't exist - it's a lie taught by religons to scare people.

The bible does NOT support the existence of "hell" (as in a place where some invisible "soul" is tortured eternally). Sadly, people (even atheists) find it hard to accept this fact due perhaps to their childhood indoctrination and will often argue for what their religious leaders have taught them, instead of studying the matter for themselves.

In any case, I have posted here earlier on that subject I will post the link in case you missed what I said.

LINK
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 948#843948



JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[1213]

...It doesn't matter how nice or kind of a person you are. This sociopath will condemn you to hell for not obeying, serving, believing, and dedicating your life to him. He demands obedience without having any empathy towards human dignity or towards anyone who lived their lives in a very compassionate and respectful manner.

I hope you are not talking about Bible God, because then I think you have very much wrong information.

Firstly, not obeying Bible God means, you lie, steal and murder, or can do that, but have not already done what you desire. In other words, you don’t love others as yourself. I don’t see how person of that kind could be called nice and kind.

Secondly, believing is not the problem, unrighteousness is. Judgment in the Bible is based on this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.
John 3:19-21

And eternal life is s gift for righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Others will not live forever and frankly, I don’t see why all should have eternal life, especially when they have proven they would make it eternal suffering for all.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And about believing, it is not the key, righteousness is as pointed out in previous parts.

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

And lastly, serving and dedicating your life, not useful, if you are not righteous and if you are righteous, I believe you want to serve freely God, because you understand well what it truly means and want to do so. It is not mandatory.

[William]

Yep. One cannot and need not accept the doctrine of hell as truth. It appeals to some types and not to others, but in the spirit of your questions - taken as rhetorical - if the GOD sends humans who have diligently applied the Golden Rule in their daily lives, into this eternal damnation, then sure, the GOD would have to be a loony-tune.

Is it said who created 'Hell'? Perhaps Satan and his angels did, as a place they could dwell away from Heaven?
Then the stories of Hell involve those demonic angels torturing the poor damned humans so they are just as loony as the GOD who would put the humans there.

That would suppose then, that perhaps Satan is that GOD who puts humans there. Certain it can be assumed as such. There is no difference in the actions.

Seems to me to be a doctrine with so many holes in it that it should be regarded as a creation of seriously narcissistic loonies, with agendas focused on manipulating humans in this life, with fearful stories about an afterlife.

Perhaps too, it is popular with some because it offers a 'justice' that they think some people actually deserve... rapists, torturers, murderers, unfaithful partners, etc...and these are not just 'Christians' who think some people deserve such, either. And of course, not all Christians believe in the doctrine of hell and damnation.

But the way I see it, even that popular evil human monster, Hitler (and those like him who incited and assisted with similar atrocities throughout history) does not deserve an eternity of hell-fire and torture as per the promises of hell, and anyone who thinks otherwise is most likely a narcissistic loony-tune.

Plenty of those types on the face of the earth... hopefully eventually they will be outnumbered by the more sensible...eventually...

I would say that, if there is some kind of good GOD or process of afterlife justice, then it isn't likely to be the kind that narcissists have imagined for the world.

[ttruscott]

I will talk about the claimed love and justice of the Christian God and other religious based Gods like him. If someone was very kind and altruistic and was cast out into hell on judgment day since this individual did not obey God's commandments and/or did not believe in him, then to say that an all loving and all just God would do that would actually not be real love and justice at all. Rather, it would be the love and justice of a sociopath.

Some kindness and altruism does not allow a psychopath to either escape the chains of evil on his soul or to escape the legal consequences of the evil that he chose as his nature. It is who you have chose to be that condemns or saves you, not what you do, good or bad.

How can this rant be separated in kind from those who hate justice and the justice system any and every time a person is incarcerated or condemned to death...every time a law is made which they do not feel obliged to obey? How is perfect justice the same as 'the wrath of a psychopath / sociopath who will condemn you...' when one is legal and prescribed by a legitimate authority and the other is emotionalism at its best?

[OnceConvinced]

Moderator Action

Moved to Random Ramblings due to lack of a clear debate question.

Preaching and rants are not permitted in the majority of our subforums.

. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.

[ttruscott]

IF we are created as eternally alive spirits and
IF we can sin a sin that makes us eternally evil and
IF it is true a little leaven / sin will leaven / corrupt the whole lump / person, city, nation, world, reality

THEN it is an absolute necessity that any eternally evil people be banished from our created reality (to the outer darkness) to stop them from totally corrupting the heavenly state of the complete telepathic communion of love and communication that will be instituted as the Marriage of the Lamb.

If evil is not eradicated with no access to this link between everyone and GOD with with each other, the link would be instantly susceptible to the zirus like effect of sin within it.

The claim that hell could only be used by a psychotic god or by as sadistic one is built on secular idealistic humanism which is not reflected in the Spiritual world that claims HE is the bulwark of righteousness against an eternal evil dedicated to taking all of the known universe into its power... using hell to stop them by an absolute necessity.

[Demented_Literature]

[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]

I take it for the sake of argument God exists, and in God we are speaking of the God of the bible (feel free to correct any detail above)

If so, I do not agree, the evidence in scripture is that JEHOVAH (YHWH, the name of the God of the bible) is both loving and just and has manifest his generosity both in creation and in his purpose for mankind.

Hell doesn't exist - it's a lie taught by religons to scare people.

The bible does NOT support the existence of "hell" (as in a place where some invisible "soul" is tortured eternally). Sadly, people (even atheists) find it hard to accept this fact due perhaps to their childhood indoctrination and will often argue for what their religious leaders have taught them, instead of studying the matter for themselves.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.�

Mathew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

Psalm 9:17
17 The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, all the nations that forget God.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Matthew 13:50
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:42
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 19:20
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:13-14
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

As someone who studied it for himself and there for turned away from an upbringing without ever having believed; you're going to have to forgive me but I think the bible quite clearly violent on the matter of what could be considered by most as 'hell'.

[The Transcended Omniverse]

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

I think there can be other alternatives besides just having people burn forever in hell. Just think of some. I am quite sure there are much better ones out there that a truly all loving/all just God can implement.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

I think there can be other alternatives besides just having people burn forever in hell. Just think of some. I am quite sure there are much better ones out there that a truly all loving/all just God can implement.

you are not replying to post 7 at all but ignoring it. It is a logical and reasonable understanding of the need for a hell, a place of banishment. Before you baldly claim there must be alternatives, especially without reference to any, I ask that you deal with my syllogism and point out its flaw.

And, if I may, I'll burst your bubble that GOD is all loving for HE does not love the wicked: Ps 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. 6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. hates - detest (1), enemy (3), enmity (1), foes (1), hate (78), hated (28), hated her intensely (1), hates (19), hating (2), hatred (1), turned against (1), turns against (2), unloved (7).

etc, etc, etc Wannah find me even one verse that says HE loves the wicked? And loving all is not acceptable because a verse may not be used to contradict another verse so all which cannot include those HE hates must refer to some other group than all of creation.