Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

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Zzyzx
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Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

.
There is no absolute or universally accepted standard for right, wrong, good, bad, evil.

Some societies do NOT regard as evil or bad such things as: cannibalism, infanticide, premarital sex, theft and lying (at least as applied to 'others'), etc.

Some societies DO regard as evil such things as: homosexuality, interracial marriage, speaking against religious or secular leaders, drawing cartoons of 'prophets', women appearing in public without complete coverage or driving automobiles, etc.

Where is the 'absolute' or 'universal' in the above?

Some Religionists claim that their 'god' set a universal or absolute standard – however, they cannot agree among themselves exactly what the 'god' supposedly decreed. Different religions have VERY different ideas about what 'god has said'. Even denominations within the major religions teach different standards.

If I say that homosexuality is NOT 'wrong' or 'evil' and you (generic term) say that it IS 'wrong' and 'evil', we have both expressed OPINIONS. I can cite US law that clearly states that homosexuality is NOT illegal. You can cite Bible stories that say that it is a 'sin'. NEITHER of those establishes any absolute or universal 'right and wrong'

Can anyone justify a claim that ANY 'right and wrong' etc is absolute or universal?
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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #2

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

The Golden Rule seems pretty universal. TotN provided some good examples of this, though I don't recall the exact post at the moment.

All great religions teach variations of the GR, and many atheists embrace it as well.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #3

Post by Zzyzx »

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Elijah John wrote: The Golden Rule seems pretty universal.
EJ, 'Pretty universal' is no more meaningful than 'somewhat pregnant'. Universal means 'existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions'

Also, if something is absolute there are NO exceptions.

As pointed out in the OP, even such things as cannibalism and infanticide are NOT regarded as 'evil' or 'bad' everywhere all the time -- but are accepted practices in some cultures and at some times. Thus, even they are NOT absolutely / universally regarded as evil or bad.

Thus, evil / bad / etc are opinions
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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #4

Post by wiploc »

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

The Golden Rule seems pretty universal.
I particularly enjoy Arnaud Amalric's rephrasing of the golden rule: "Kill them all, let god sort them out."

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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Elijah John wrote: The Golden Rule seems pretty universal.
EJ, 'Pretty universal' is no more meaningful than 'somewhat pregnant'. Universal means 'existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions'

Also, if something is absolute there are NO exceptions.
I think you are being too literal, my friend. How about "as a general rule" then?
Zzyzx wrote: As pointed out in the OP, even such things as cannibalism and infanticide are NOT regarded as 'evil' or 'bad' everywhere all the time -- but are accepted practices in some cultures and at some times. Thus, even they are NOT absolutely / universally regarded as evil or bad.

Thus, evil / bad / etc are opinions
Horrible example, and not even cannibals wish themselves to be consumed by their enemies. But they sure don't seem to mind making a meal out of others.

You cite the exception and the worst-case example, but it does not disprove the general "universal" rule.

Most ethics are widely professed, if not actually adhered to.

Most cultures condemn murder, theft, and adultery.

And don't most non-Theists protest when Fundamentalists say that the only reason they reject God and Christ is because they want to live immoral lives?

And I agree that most atheists/non-Theists are not atheists because they want to live immoral lives.

But what then, does it mean when a protesting atheist insists they are moral, ethical people?

Isn't that a concession that ethics are universally understood?

In broad strokes if not in every particular.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #6

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

The cannibals of Papau New Guinea absolutely would want to be consumed. There for a long time was a protein scarcity in the diet of various tribes. The men being hunters and warriors received nearly all of the hunted protein. While the women got scraps and their diets consisted mostly of fruit seeds and vegetables. To compensate for this when a woman among the tribe died the women would consume her.

The practice however had to end because of the encephalitis that it was causing and through various measures of humanitarian aid and government intervention(introduction of the pacu fish) cannabilsm gad mostly been stamped out,
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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Since I believe in God* and believe he has absolute access to all knowledge and is absolute goodness, I believe He can establish (and communicate if he so wish) absolute standards of good and bad. Indeed my reading of the bible that mentions a tree with a similar name in the book of Genesis, was a request imo that Adam and Eve recognize this fundamental fact.

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Personal opinion,

JW

* Those that believe there is no God are still essentially expressing their opinion (for they cannot possibly claim to know everything that is, has been or could be without making themselves the very thing they don't believe in ... a god) thus they are not in a position to say there can be no absolute standard, only that they do not believe in absolute standards.
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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #8

Post by Zzyzx »

.
EJ -- a pleasure, as always.
Elijah John wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:
Elijah John wrote: The Golden Rule seems pretty universal.
'Pretty universal' is no more meaningful than 'somewhat pregnant'. Universal means 'existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions'

Also, if something is absolute there are NO exceptions.
I think you are being too literal, my friend.
I am often 'too literal' when being precise disagrees with someone's position – or 'not literal enough' if that suits someone's argument.

If we re-define 'universal' to mean 'most of the time in most places', WHAT term shall we use to denote something that happens every time in all places?

If we re-define 'absolute' to mean 'most of the time', what term shall we use to denote something that has no exceptions?
Elijah John wrote: How about "as a general rule" then?
I have no objection to 'as a general rule' – because that is not a claim of universal or absolute.
Elijah John wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: As pointed out in the OP, even such things as cannibalism and infanticide are NOT regarded as 'evil' or 'bad' everywhere all the time -- but are accepted practices in some cultures and at some times. Thus, even they are NOT absolutely / universally regarded as evil or bad.

Thus, evil / bad / etc are opinions
Horrible example, and not even cannibals wish themselves to be consumed by their enemies. But they sure don't seem to mind making a meal out of others.
Notice that what I said was, �even such things as cannibalism and infanticide are NOT regarded as 'evil' or 'bad' everywhere all the time -- but are accepted practices in some cultures and at some times. Thus, even they are NOT absolutely / universally regarded as evil or bad.�

That is a different matter than what one wants for themselves.
Elijah John wrote: You cite the exception and the worst-case example, but it does not disprove the general "universal" rule.

Most ethics are widely professed, if not actually adhered to.

Most cultures condemn murder, theft, and adultery.
Agreed. 'As a general rule' applies – not a universal or absolute. Therefore, Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS – as stated in the OP.
Elijah John wrote: And don't most non-Theists protest when Fundamentalists say that the only reason they reject God and Christ is because they want to live immoral lives?
'As a general rule' most Non-Theists in these debates protest. Do all protest at all times? Heck no. Is the act of protesting absolute or universal. Heck no – it may be 'a general rule' or a 'frequent occurrence'.

Caution is advised when claiming universality or absolutism:

'What goes up must come down' is NOT a universal / absolute truth. Shoot a rocket up (defined as away from the center of the Earth) at sufficient velocity and it will NOT return to Earth (come down).

Even, 'A rock will fall if support is removed' is NOT universal or absolute – unless one specifies 'in the Earth's atmosphere, with no forces other than gravity acting upon it'. Without those limitations the statement is false (not universally or absolutely true) – as in the case of a person aboard the ISS – or in the case of a sufficient updraft.

Worse yet, 'water boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheit' is NOT universal or absolute because the boiling point of water is dependent upon atmospheric pressure. At high elevation (lower than average or 'standard' atmospheric pressure environment -- meaning less than 1013.25 mb), water boils at considerably lower temperature. That is easily confirmed by consulting a cook book – that makes allowances for high elevations. At the top of Pike's Peak it takes eight minutes to cook a 'three minute egg� (soft boiled). A pressure cooker reverses that condition by raising the boiling point of water by increasing pressure.

'As a general rule' water boils at about 212 F when applied to most locations. However, the 'general rule' is neither absolute nor universal.
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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: * Those that believe there is no God are still essentially expressing their opinion (for they cannot possibly claim to know everything that is, has been or could be without making themselves the very thing they don't believe in ... a god) thus they are not in a position to say there can be no absolute standard, only that they do not believe in absolute standards.
Who said that there couldn't be an absolute standard? Obviously if we place one egotistical being as the ultimate authority then his or her OPINION will constitute that absolute standard.

In fact, that's all a God would be in any case. It would just be an egotistical entity who is demanding that his OPINION rules. :roll:

So there still wouldn't be any absolute right or wrong. All that would exist is the OPINION of an egotistical God who demands that his OPINIONS rule.

In fact, if this God had NO CHOICE but to enforce some higher form of "Absolute Morality" then this higher morality wouldn't be coming from this God. Instead it would be something that even God must follow.

So the whole idea that an absolute morality could come from a God is a contradictory ideal to being with.

If morally comes from an egotistical God who desires for himself what he deems to be right or wrong, then morality is nothing more than the subjective OPINION of this God.

He would be nothing more than an ego that is so powerful that if anyone disagrees with him he'll HURT them. And he would even egotistically proclaim that this is GOOD that he hurts those who disagree with him. :roll:

Any religion that is based on an egotistical God who will HURT people who don't agree with his OPINIONS is nothing more than a overblown ego who's out of control. He simply has no one over him to chastise him when he does things that the higher entity deems to be immoral.

Christianity and all the Abrahamic religions are obvious nonsense. Not only does their egotistical God make no sense, but according to the Bible he violates his own opinionated moral values. This God HURTS people and refuses to confess that he's violating his own opinionated moral values.

So he would be a hypocrite if he did exist.

Even Jesus proclaimed that the unrighteous will go the way of damnation.

So even Jesus proclaims that God will HURT people.

Jesus also proclaimed that the Pharisees will receive the greater damnation. Yet, on the cross he contradicts his own decree and instead asks God to forgive them for they know not what they do.

It seems like Jesus was confused about which moral opinions he wanted to actually support. Damnation of the unrighteous? Or forgiveness for not knowing what they do?
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Re: Right, Wrong, Good, Bad, Evil are OPINIONS

Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 8 by Zzyzx]

Well, if we want to talk "precision", then something is either true or not. 1+1=2. Or would a relativist say 1+1=3...as long as one feels good about it? They may say so, but it would not make any given proposition true simply because "one feels good about it".

But yes, for a Theistic perspective, right, wrong, good, evil are based on opinion, not on our own, but on God's opinion. The sense that "universal" norms of morality exist is sometimes used by apologists as evidence that such notions are God-given. I agree...I believe it, perhaps some could prove it, but I can't at this time.

And yes, failing that even if no God exists, then good and evil are based on opinion, but society's collective and consensus opinions.

But if you are saying that good and evil are based on an individual's subjective opinion, there we would disagree.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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