Plato's Meno Dialogue

[2ndRateMind]

So, in this dialogue Socrates encounters Meno.

After some preliminaries, we arrive at a meaty question. Socrates insists that he doesn't know what virtue is, but is prepared to continue the discussion with the hypothesis that virtue is knowledge. And knowledge can be taught. But virtue isn't taught ('Where are the teachers of virtue?'). So virtue both can and can't be taught, which is the kind of paradox both Socrates and Plato like to present for our edification as to our general state of ignorance.

So, my prompt questions for the forum's discussion are:

Is virtue knowledge?
If not, how could we recognise it when presented with it, or when we hear stories about it?
If so, and given that virtue is generally considered to be desirable, indeed, perhaps even the most agile of all transferable skills, why do not all colleges and universities offer a base course: Virtue 101?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

PS. I'd just like to add that the Meno is a set text for a course of study I am taking on, so all your various perspectives will be interesting and useful to me.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

Is virtue knowledge?

Yes

If so, and given that virtue is generally considered to be desirable, indeed, perhaps even the most agile of all transferable skills, why do not all colleges and universities offer a base course: Virtue 101?

Generally speaking I would say it is because the education system is still based upon an old paradigm developed in the industrial age and virtue is not something which keeps the systems going and some (or even many) of those methods which keep things going would be questionable if virtue was taught through the institutions of education.

In that sense, it is not generally considered to be desirable, or easily transferred from teacher to student.
If anything, a pretentious form of 'virtue' is taught - one which requires dressing up and looking and sounding the part.

In that light, if you want to learn virtue, you are best to seek it genuinely and in that, teach yourself.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 1 by 2ndRateMind]

Is virtue knowledge?

Yes

I think Plato would want to agree with you. So far as my readings go, Plato is keen to stress the relationship between knowledge and virtue, such that he thinks those with 'true' or 'real' knowledge must automatically express virtue. He does not seem prepared to countenance a situation whereby an individual can have (a philosopher's) knowledge, and still think, speak or do evil.

Yet, I dare say there are simple folk, who own virtue, and sophisticated people, who do not.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[ttruscott]

Is virtue knowledge?

Then to know virtue is to be virtuous? Hardly... Knowledge OF virtue is less than virtue.

Virtue is righteousness morality and it is found only in the NATURE of GOD and in those who are in accord with HIS nature.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

I think you are quite correct to say knowledge about virtue is not necessarily the same thing as virtue itself, as Plato is sometimes interpreted. Knowledge about virtue may be regarded as a necessary, but not sufficient, condition, to being virtuous. But, Plato can be defended on the grounds that he was not talking so much of knowledge about, but more a kind of enlightened state of being that could be described as a true experience of virtue.

I am less sure about your other contention, that accordance with God's nature is both a necessary and sufficient condition for virtue. And that is primarily because there are as many conceptions of God, and what His nature might be, as there are people. Unless we can be sure that our version of God is accurate, I do not think this scheme allows us to be sure that our version of virtue is accurate. So, I think we may need a more precise requirement than this for our conception of virtue to have real traction on the world.

In the dialogue, Socrates is keen to arrive at some decisive quality that all virtues share, and that distinguishes them from vice, which is bereft of that quality. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

Socrates' conclusion is most likely to be relevant to this thread:

Then, Meno, the conclusion is that virtue comes to the virtuous by the gift of God. But we shall never know the certain truth until, before asking how virtue is given, we enquire into the nature of virtue itself...

And having delivered himself of this conclusion, Socrates does not defend it, but makes himself scarce:

...I fear now that I must go away...

So, is virtue a gift of God? Or is it an aspect of character that each of us can develop for ourselves, independently of God? If so, is it nature or nurture or some happy combination of both that predisposes us to virtue?

Best wishes, 2RM.