And the Lord hardened the Pharaoh's heart

[Willum]

Exodus 7:3-4, is there any Bible verse that brings so much discontent to a believer's heart?
It destroys not only the unsubstantiated claim of free-will, but demonstrates God cruel and manipulative.

Skipping all the apologetic excuses, the Egyptians were evil, the Pharaoh was a dictator, they didn't brush their teeth after stealing all their slaves' garlic, etc., if we back it up, don't we discover that it was God, not the Pharaoh who was mistreating and harming the Jews?

Because, let's face it, the Biblical account is unlikely the first time God would have had to hardened his heart.

In all that time, couldn't God had softened the Pharaoh's heart, long before then?
In short, isn't God himself to blame for the suffering of Moses' people?

Please justify your answer with scripture.

[ttruscott]

In all that time, couldn't God had softened the Pharaoh's heart, long before then? In short, isn't God himself to blame for the suffering of Moses' people?

Please justify your answer with scripture.

You imply that the hardening of Pharaoh's heart made Pharoah do some heinous thing he did not want to do. Ol' Moses was his best friend and he desperately wished well to the Israelites but that mean evil YHWH forced him to hate them and forced him to commit suicide by trying to destroy them. Pfffft.

Reading for content will dissuade you of this fallacy as there is no hint of this happening anywhere except in the minds of those prone to looking for derogatory slurs against YHWH...a knee jerk response driven by contempt.

To harden HIS heart obviously means to take away the restraints holding him back from his deepest heart's desire to attack the Israelites so he feels free to do what his heart wants, to attack and to destroy them.

My scripture support is the story itself and the revealed character of YHWH as righteous.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Hello Willum!

Exodus 3:7 The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

So, in reading this, it would seem to me that Pharaoh's heart was already calloused to be treating his slaves in such a manner.

19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.

So, God knew the heart of the Pharaoh in the first place. His heart was already hardened, and God knew that He would be unyielding to letting His people go.

The hardened heart of Pharaoh does not hinder free will, but rather that God is very well aware of it.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 3 by Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]

Read and read.

So the same tired responses to a different question.
Not all of the Exodus questions are about the question of the hardening of his heart. This one, at it's heart, is not. Tsk... Tsk.

TS- So reading Exodus, it isn't a long read - basically confirms it is Yahweh's neglect that lands the Jews in that position...

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 4 by Willum]

My most sincere apologies Willlum, for not reading as carefully as I needed to! I will do some thinking and attempt to redeem myself!

Thank you!

[Willum]

[Replying to post 5 by Peds nurse]

Good luck, 'Nurse, like so many of my postings here, there is no answer. I post to get you to think about and realize this.

Apologetic arguments for, in this case, a slavery that didn't even exist, were created long before Christianity.

A proud tradition, no?

[JehovahsWitness]

Exodus 7:3-4, is there any Bible verse that brings so much discontent to a believer's heart?

Well I'm a believer and the passage doesn't bring any discontent to my heart at all. I don't believe I'm alone, in fact I'm sure I'm not.

It destroys not only the unsubstantiated claim of free-will, but demonstrates God cruel and manipulative.

It does nothing of the kind.


JW
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 159#838159

[Willum]

[Replying to post 7 by JehovahsWitness]

While I appreciate the second response with the tired old answer to this, a different question - is it so difficult for you to consider the actual issue at large instead of answering the same old, same old?

Isn't it God's fault they were enslaved in the first place?
Wouldn't some heart manipulation have worked out better earlier?

Or does your God have to let atrocious evil, which he knows will happen, occur before he disproportionately punished both good and bad alike?

[ttruscott]

Isn't it God's fault they were enslaved in the first place?

No fault is found in HIS perfect plan to separate the non-elect from HIS sinful elect within the tribe. Pain and suffering for non-elect is a given but so is it for HIS legitimate sons: Heb 12:5-11. You obviously see pain and suffering as a bad thing brought on only by a blameworthy decision.

A religious pov, for sure, but it has nothing to do with Christianity.

Or does your God have to let atrocious evil, which he knows will happen, occur before he disproportionately punished both good and bad alike?

The proportions are perfectly exact to the crime. Legitimate judgement for the non-elect and painful discipline for HIS sinful elect to train them in righteousness. I accept Rom 9 for this.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]

The net result of God's actions are an unnecessary genocide?
When you think of all the options a God with a fraction of the wisdom and ability could do to prevent of create a better situation, the best your perfect God can do is torture two peoples and genocide?

This town doesn't just need a better class of villain, it needs a better class of deity.