If Jesus is only a perfect man then

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Wootah
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If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

If Jesus is only a man then:

* if we were made perfect we would save ourselves (thank you very much). But God didn't make us perfect therefore it is God's fault

* The only difference between man and God is one of power. Morally we are equal because whatever Jesus did was enough to redeem us.

It just seems so horribly narcissistic to argue that we are equal to God. That there, but for the deliberate hindrance of God, I would be perfect. It's almost like Satan tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that they could be Gods.

Why can't non Christians see that?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #2

Post by Elijah John »

Wootah wrote: If Jesus is only a man then:

* if we were made perfect we would save ourselves (thank you very much). But God didn't make us perfect therefore it is God's fault

* The only difference between man and God is one of power. Morally we are equal because whatever Jesus did was enough to redeem us.

It just seems so horribly narcissistic to argue that we are equal to God. That there, but for the deliberate hindrance of God, I would be perfect. It's almost like Satan tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that they could be Gods.

Why can't non Christians see that?
Maybe I'm missing something, but why and how does it follow that if anyone says that Jesus is only a man, (or a perfect man), than they themselves are claiming to be equal to God?

Is that what you are saying here?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Wootah
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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #3

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Elijah John]

God has set a moral standard to reside in heaven.
So if I can earn my way into heaven then morally I am equal to God.
Therefore a perfect man is morally equal to God.

Generally you see Jesus as a prophet and playing no part in the redemptive process so I'm not sure how much the question applies to you. But in effect if Jesus is a perfect man and satisfied the law then if I was a perfect man I would satisfy the law. But I'm not. None of us are (right?). So those fault is it that I'm not a perfect man? Why that's God's fault.

So we can see man's desire to be God and man's desire to blame God in the one belief that Jesus was only a (perfect) man.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to Elijah John]

God has set a moral standard to reside in heaven.
That is correct.
Wootah wrote: So if I can earn my way into heaven then morally I am equal to God.
No one, not even a perfect person could "earn" their way to heaven. Life is a gift.
Wootah wrote:So if I can earn my way into heaven then morally I am equal to God. Therefore a perfect man is morally equal to God.
See above

Wootah wrote: if Jesus is a perfect man and satisfied the law then if I was a perfect man I would satisfy the law.
That is correct

Wootah wrote: But I'm not. None of us are (right?).
That is correct.

Wootah wrote: So [whose] fault is it that I'm not a perfect man?
Adams.


Wootah wrote: Why that's God's fault.
Incorrect. See above


Wootah wrote: So we can see man's desire to be God ....
I have no desire to be God.

Wootah wrote: and man's desire to blame God
I have no desire to blame God. Although I do find that is a common reflex in atheists.

Wootah wrote: So we can see man's desire to be God and man's desire to blame God in the one belief that Jesus was only a (perfect) man.
Not in my belief, and I know for a fact I am not alone.


Wootah wrote: So we can see man's desire to be God and man's desire to blame God in the one belief that Jesus was only a (perfect) man.
I personally see no logic in the above. As Jehovah's Witnesses we believe that Jesus was a perfect man, the only one apart from Adam that ever walked this earth, and this is the basis for the ransom which we commemorate each year (this year it's Tuesday April, 11th 2017).

For us the logic follows that if Adam (a perfect man) caused our problems only a perfect man could provide the ransom to repair that damage. Thanks to Jesus obedient people can live forever without sickness, or cancer in good houses on this our planet earth.


If we can "blame" God for anything, its for the prospect of peace, health and propperity.

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #5

Post by 2timothy316 »

Wootah wrote:
It just seems so horribly narcissistic to argue that we are equal to God. That there, but for the deliberate hindrance of God, I would be perfect. It's almost like Satan tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that they could be Gods.

Why can't non Christians see that?
I agree with a bit of this. Humans are indeed narcissistic. Some of these even call themselves Christians. It's part of the sin passed down to us from Adam. Adam, Eve and Satan all wanted to be 'like God' making their own choices in what is good and bad. Well, we have had this ability for thousands of years now. Has it been a passing grade? Turn on the news, review history and we will see the answer is no.

As far as God deliberately hindering us from from being perfect that is not completely true. It was Adam and Eve that thought they could go it alone without God's rule. The deliberate hindrance is not God's but mankind's. It is the Almighty God that has given us a way back through His Son. Those that do not accept this gift are hindering themselves.

You are correct though that Satan is still putting the exact same lies in front of people. Telling them they can figure out all the world's issues on their own. Their rebellion from God is explained in Exekiel 12:2 which says, "Son of man, in the midst of a rebellious house is where you are dwelling, that have eyes to see but they actually do not see, that have ears to hear but they actually do not hear, for they are a rebellious house." The reason some can't see what you are talking about is because they live in 'a rebellious house'. They want nothing to do with serving God because Satan has done a really good job of presenting them with lies and since their hearts lean towards rebellion, they eat it up hook, line and sinker.

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #6

Post by dio9 »

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

Jesus was a human being a son of man like all of us. If a Jew or Christian said he was God , people would say he is insane. If a Hindu said he was God people would say congratulations , because he discovered the essence of God within himself.
Paul and every fellow Christian saying Christ is alive in me is very similar to the Hindu sages saying I am God.
In other words though we remain human with all our foibles we have received and discovered God within ourselves being Christ.
What do you think Paul meant when he said be a Temple of God?

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #7

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Wootah wrote: But I'm not. None of us are (right?).
That is correct.

Wootah wrote: So [whose] fault is it that I'm not a perfect man?
Adams.


Wootah wrote: Why that's God's fault.
Incorrect. See above
Wait a minute here...false conclusion. Who made me so that I am fallen in Adam? GOD did. HE could have made me innocent like HE made Adam and Eve. How did HE reason and decide, to which of HIS attributes do we ascribe, HIS making HIS people sinners in or by Adam? There is no reason for HIM to do this. None of HIS attributes support HIM doing this.

For what good did HE have us born as humans into Adam's corrupted dna?
For what pleasure did HE have us born into Adam's corrupted dna?
Matthew 3:10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Adam was a tree that produced evil fruit yet he was allowed to live and populate the earth with evil when he should have been cut off and burned. Why allow Adam's evil dna to spread and to be the basis of GOD's people and HIS enemies??? Why allow this imperfect parent to continue to create imperfect children, [WT: The reason is quite simple. Imperfect parents cannot produce perfect children. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010414]

IF I was born or created any other way in holy imagination, I would not have been born guilty or imperfect at all. Obviously GOD made us this way.

It does not make sense to me when GOD says it is wrong to do it this way: Ezekiel 18:19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

The child will not share the guilt of the parent - and no distinction is made for bad dna passing on supposed sinfulness. Corrupt dna is making the child share the guilt, the evil, of the parent at every generation...if this doctrine is true.

To sin is to break the law. A person does not break the law if there is no intent to break the law, no mens rea. Can a baby be born guilty of sin without breaking the law? None of this adds up.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #8

Post by Wootah »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

Jesus was a human being a son of man like all of us. If a Jew or Christian said he was God , people would say he is insane. If a Hindu said he was God people would say congratulations , because he discovered the essence of God within himself.
Paul and every fellow Christian saying Christ is alive in me is very similar to the Hindu sages saying I am God.
In other words though we remain human with all our foibles we have received and discovered God within ourselves being Christ.
What do you think Paul meant when he said be a Temple of God?
Yes that's why the Jews tried to stone Jesus for blasphemy. Why can you recognise that a person claiming to be God is insane but probably don't recognise that others back then saw that is what Jesus was claiming as well?

Paul meant that Jesus has allowed for a relationship with God again and now God dwells in Christians.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #9

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

Also when we blame Adam we are not blaming ourselves. Whatever Adam did or didn't do will be the least of God's concerns when addressing our sins.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: If Jesus is only a perfect man then

Post #10

Post by Wootah »

Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

If no one can earn their way into heaven then what do you think Jesus did for us? Do we still face judgement condemned? Either Jesus has made us morally equal to God or his sacrifice was pointless.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

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