If Jesus is only a perfect man then

[Wootah]

If Jesus is only a man then:

* if we were made perfect we would save ourselves (thank you very much). But God didn't make us perfect therefore it is God's fault

* The only difference between man and God is one of power. Morally we are equal because whatever Jesus did was enough to redeem us.

It just seems so horribly narcissistic to argue that we are equal to God. That there, but for the deliberate hindrance of God, I would be perfect. It's almost like Satan tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that they could be Gods.

Why can't non Christians see that?

[JehovahsWitness]

Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

If no one can earn their way into heaven then what do you think Jesus did for us?

He gave his life, so that God could offer that gift to those that obey Him. It's still a gift, life is not given as a right.


JW

[Wootah]

Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

If no one can earn their way into heaven then what do you think Jesus did for us?

He gave his life, so that God could offer that gift to those that obey Him. It's still a gift, life is not given as a right.


JW

Jesus did something and then God offers a gift or God can offer the gift regardless of Jesus.

Why can't God just offer the gift regardless?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus did something and then God offers a gift or God can offer the gift regardless of Jesus.

Why can't God just offer the gift regardless?

That particular gift (the ransom) was absolutely necessary for life everlasting life on this our planet earth in good houses (free of sickness), to be possible.

Why can't God just offer the gift regardless?

Because He always does what is just and right and that wouldn't have been either. Did you miss my earlier post on the subject? I'll post it again...


Link
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 775#846775

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]

Without Jesus' work God would not offer his gift.

Therefore Jesus earned our way into heaven. Correct?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 14 by Wootah]

No, if Jesus didn't do it God would find another way. His purpose must be fulfilled once it has been stated. Most gifts have to be paid for but that doesn't make them any less of a gift. If someone gives you a car, is it any less a gift because the giver paid for it.

The ultimate person that paid for the ransom was Jehovah himself, Jesus death cost him (Jehovah his Father dearly). Nobody earned anything. To illustrate: Imagine you wanted a diamond but you heard the cost was more than you or anyone could possibly affort. If someone obtained it (legally) and gave it to you would you say you "earned" it?


JW

Further reading:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... 017-march/

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by JehovahsWitness]

Please no images. They detract for me. Also I'm enjoying debating with you not reading doctrine.

So are you now saying that God could have found another way that didn't involve Jesus being brutalized and murdered but chose this way?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by Wootah]


Like I said, God will always find a way to fulfill his purpose (see Isaiah 55:11). I don't answer loaded questions, sorry.

Have an excellent day,

JW

ps: I will post all the pictures that I like.


The ransom: Our way to this planet in peace

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 17 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm pretty sure the point of posting pictures is to provide additional debating information like a graph.

I'm not loading any questions. It's the direction of your posts.

You know I was thinking about the ancient greek stories of man vs God. They were always tests of strength or wit or intellect. Could a man beat a God was an underlying theme.

But we have a new version. To best God morally is the best victory of all. We see it when atheists post how they are morally superior to God. But you refuse/fail/deny to see it in your understanding of Jesus.

It's amazing really. The whole ancient Greek mythology never imagined to my knowledge that to truly beat the gods one would have to do it morally.

Either Jesus was God and so God by his grace redeemed us or morally man is equal to God.

It's as I said at the start. Quite nakedly narcissistic.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 18 by Wootah]

I quickly scanned your post but could see nothing that related to what I have posted or even required any kind of response on my part. The best I can say is ... thank you for sharing.

JW

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

What other way than Jesus might be available to God that we think of?

Christians are stuck on this point. We are forced to believe that Jesus death was necessary as well.

So if Jesus' death was necessary then we can agree that a work was required for God to show mercy on those that believe. Right?