If Jesus is only a perfect man then

[Wootah]

If Jesus is only a man then:

* if we were made perfect we would save ourselves (thank you very much). But God didn't make us perfect therefore it is God's fault

* The only difference between man and God is one of power. Morally we are equal because whatever Jesus did was enough to redeem us.

It just seems so horribly narcissistic to argue that we are equal to God. That there, but for the deliberate hindrance of God, I would be perfect. It's almost like Satan tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that they could be Gods.

Why can't non Christians see that?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

What other way than Jesus might be available to God that we think of?

Somebody else?

So if Jesus' death was necessary then we can agree that a work was required for God to show mercy on those that believe. Right?

Actions where were indeed necessary to redeem mankind, I have already dealt with the notion of those actions being "earning" in my earlier post, see below.

[Replying to post 14 by Wootah]

No, if Jesus didn't do it God would find another way. His purpose must be fulfilled once it has been stated. Most gifts have to be paid for but that doesn't make them any less of a gift. If someone gives you a car, is it any less a gift because the giver paid for it.

The ultimate person that paid for the ransom was Jehovah himself, Jesus death cost him (Jehovah his Father dearly). Nobody earned anything. To illustrate: Imagine you wanted a diamond but you heard the cost was more than you or anyone could possibly affort. If someone obtained it (legally) and gave it to you would you say you "earned" it?


JW

Further reading:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... 017-march/

[dio9]

m thinking Jesus discovered God within himself. And his disciples came to recognize God in themselves through Christ. Like Jesus said the kingdom is within, God is within to be discovered.

[Wootah]

m thinking Jesus discovered God within himself. And his disciples came to recognize God in themselves through Christ. Like Jesus said the kingdom is within, God is within to be discovered.

Well you're in the right thread. This thread is exploring the potential narcissistic roots in mankind to be God and how making Jesus just a man is a big step towards that.

Oh hey God is within me. All the time I had that potential. In me.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 21 by JehovahsWitness]

Even in your example you have to admit that the someone who obtained the diamond did work. There would be no diamond to receive as a gift otherwise.

Jesus or someone else had to go fetch the diamond.

I can't see why you aren't ceding simple concepts?

Jesus the man through his life equalled God's moral law.

True or false?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus the man through his life equalled God's moral law.

True or false?

I have no idea what that sentence means so I'm afraid I cannot say. Maybe you could explain what you mean.

JW

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

It means that Jesus did something and made it possible for man to receive God's gift. Had Jesus erred as Adam did then Jesus would have failed and we would have still been condemned.

Right?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

It means that Jesus did something and made it possible for man to receive God's gift. Had Jesus erred as Adam did then Jesus would have failed and we would have still been condemned.

Right?

Well, not really, as I said had Jesus failed salvation would have had to come another way.


JW

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

Bu another way you mean another perfect man right?

I mean if there was another way that doesn't involve a perfect man dying for our sins then it's immoral that God chose that way in the first place. How many other ways therefore are there really?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

Bu another way you mean another perfect man right?

I mean if there was another way that doesn't involve a perfect man dying for our sins then it's immoral that God chose that way in the first place. How many other ways therefore are there really?

I cannot know the mind of God, what I do know it is limitless and always used in a just way. It would be beyond my limited capacity to even guess what alternatives God could have come up with...

ROMANS 11:33, 34
O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are!For “who has come to know Jehovah’s* mind, or who has become his adviser?"

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

And yet you know enough to know JW is the way. How do you that the mind of God isn't the opposite of what you believe? Isn't that unfortunate that now you seek to not think about it all?

Aren't we called to love God with all our mind?

Would you say the same if God said 2+2=5?

Would you tolerate your beliefs if they were irrational? I created a thread on this recently.
viewtopic.php?t=32209

But perhaps this question is easier. I know very little about your religion. I didn't know for instance that it claims to not be works based and that this would be an issue you would argue on. Is it JW doctrine that it is works based or not? In light of our chat would you agree that it is leaning towards being works based?