No Hebrews in Egypt and no Exodus?

[polonius]

It is now believed that the first seven book of the Bible were written about 800-700 AD perhaps by Jews living in Babylon.

And archeology has determined that there were no Hebrews in Egypt and hence no Exodus.

How do those of the Jewish faith make an adjustment to these new findings? How do Christians?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

Quite right, the Bible trumps in this forum, but does it even trump reality?

Yes. When the 'reality' presented isn't reality but a mistake in identity. The Bible corrects them but they don't accept the Bible as reliable and thus their accepted record is in error. If they had started with the Bible's testimony first then everything lines up perfectly.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

If they had started with the Bible's testimony first then everything lines up perfectly.

Okay...so where's the physical garbage left by 1 million plus people wandering a desert for years at a time? Did God magically make that vanish?
What about surrounding nations? Where's the influx of Egyptian gold and treasure being used to purchase food, as would have happened during a period of starvation as outlined in the Old Testament?
I often hear that the reason there is no mention in Egyptian writings about the Exodus is that it was embarrassing for the Egyptians...well, what about surrounding lands? Surely they would have noticed Egypt going through a famine, losing the majority of their workforce, the death of their king and then said workforce wandering the land for years (doesn't have to be 40). They wouldn't have been embarrassed to write about it.

If I start out believing Greek tales of their gods, then everything should line up perfectly. I should see the home of the gods on Mount Olympus...oh wait, I don't. There's nothing there.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 12 by rikuoamero]

Again watch the film Exodus Pattern of Evidence. Everything you speak of is there. They think that the Exodus happened during the time of Ramses the II but it doesn't fit. It only fits with Ramses I. They looking for the evidence in the wrong time and wrong places and wrong kingdom. Yet when they look in the ground for the Exodus during Ramses I time period there is all the evidence just as the Bible says. It matches with everything. The places, the people and the Kingdoms.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 13 by 2timothy316]

I KNOW! Archaeologists, historians and scientists are SOOO dumb, using so many tools to discover many civilizations and people they didn't know or suspect existed, but can not detect the most profound Exodus in history.

We should make them turn over their Google-Earth, books, and records, and let someone else pick up their spades!

I am sure a Jew or Christian could find it rapidly...

Well, look there it is! All those proto-Jews, right in the Book of Exodus. Problem solved.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 13 by 2timothy316]

I KNOW! Archaeologists, historians and scientists are SOOO dumb, using so many tools to discover many civilizations and people they didn't know or suspect existed, but can not detect the most profound Exodus in history.

Actually they can and have detected it. Just not in the time period and pharaoh they thought it would be. It's all in the film, go watch it. It's broken down very easily why there are archaeologists and scientists that are trying to convince other archaeologists they need to correct their timelines. It's not that they are dumb, because it was archaeologists, historians and scientist that found the error. Others are arrogant and refuse to except the evidence that the Exodus didn't take place during Ramses II. There is even a coat of a high official with the name Joseph on it! Where they found it was in an elaborate tome. Like one of a person of importance. There was no body in it. Do you know why?

Guess what, all of this was not found with time of Ramses II. It was in a time period much earlier during the previous Ramses.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 13 by 2timothy316]

I KNOW! Archaeologists, historians and scientists are SOOO dumb, using so many tools to discover many civilizations and people they didn't know or suspect existed, but can not detect the most profound Exodus in history.

Actually they can and have detected it. Just not in the time period and pharaoh they thought it would be. It's all in the film, go watch it. It's broken down very easily why there are archaeologists and scientists that are trying to convince other archaeologists they need to correct their timelines. It's not that they are dumb, because it was archaeologists, historians and scientist that found the error. Others are arrogant and refuse to except the evidence that the Exodus didn't take place during Ramses II. There is even a coat of a high official with the name Joseph on it! Where they found it was in an elaborate tome. Like one of a person of importance. There was no body in it. Do you know why?

Guess what, all of this was not found with time of Ramses II. It was in a time period much earlier during the previous Ramses.

I'll watch that film you mention later. I'll just say now that a coat with a name tag doesn't prove supernatural stories. If someone a thousand years from now finds a superman costume does that mean there really existed a man who could leap tall buildings in a single bound and who had heat vision?

[polonius]

JW posted:

Anyway the bible says the Israelites were in Egypt, I don't see your point is theology, doctrine or dogma which is what this sub-forum is dedicated to. The bible is quite clear, and does not present the account as metaphoric, what theological point are you submitting?

RESPONSE: Ah yes! The old Bible says…claim.

Are you again attempting to use “The Bible says so therefore it must be true� argument?

Do you understand the difference between folklore and history?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

“The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts,[1] a book published in 2001, discusses the archaeology of Israel and its relationship to the origins and content of the Hebrew Bible. The authors are Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Neil Asher Silberman, an archaeologist, historian and contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine.�

“The book remarks that, despite modern archaeological investigations and the meticulous ancient Egyptian records from the period of Ramesses II, there is an obvious lack of any archaeological evidence for the migration of a band of semitic people across the Sinai Peninsula, except for the Hyksos.�

“Ze'ev Herzog, professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, wrote a cover story for Haaretz in 1999 in which he reached similar conclusions following the same methodology; Herzog noted also that some of these findings have been accepted by the majority of biblical scholars and archaeologists for years and even decades, even though they have only recently begun to make a dent in the awareness of the general public.�

Perhaps you would enjoy watching:



or the somewhat longer






“Oral transmissions of the stories about that first Pesach, the plagues, the exodus from Egypt, and the crossing of the Yam Suph [the Red Sea] are among the most beautiful stories of the entire Bible,� Rollston says .

“Moreover, much as they are recited today in the Magid (the telling of the Haggadah), so also these same stories would have been told and retold each year, and with each retelling the story could be re-envisioned, recontextualized, re-lived. The tradition growing in beauty with each retelling.�

The story would also have changed with each retelling as well, each embellishment adding a new element to the tale.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeolo ... m-1.584911

Question: In reading the first seven chapters of the Old Testament, have you encountered the use of the phrase “until this day.�? What does this tell you?

[2timothy316]

I'll watch that film you mention later. I'll just say now that a coat with a name tag doesn't prove supernatural stories. If someone a thousand years from now finds a superman costume does that mean there really existed a man who could leap tall buildings in a single bound and who had heat vision?

Joseph is a known Hebrew name. It was known that Joseph was a highly respected man in Egypt. The tomb gives evidence of this. Your superman illustration is not even close to what all of this is talking about. It's more like some saying superman was not created until 1933 but there is a trunk with a superman drawing in it with the name 'superman' on it that hasn't been opened since 1833. Then someone not excepting that because they don't want to.

Don't worry, I do not expect you to become a believer in the Bible or God for examining evidence. You are in no danger of my perception of what you believe changing. However, you might change your mind that the Bible can still be relied upon as at least being a book with accurate history. At least in the case of the Exodus.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 18 by 2timothy316]

Just for your information, I'm visiting relatives and have gotten away for a few minutes. I haven't gotten a chance to watch that movie you mentioned earlier, but I will later.

Joseph is a known Hebrew name.

I will not argue the etymology of the name, since that is a bit outside my pay grade. I will accept what you say there tentatively, mainly because it doesn't weaken my own position any, even if I do.

It was known that Joseph was a highly respected man in Egypt.

Are we still talking about the one singular Joseph? Is it all possible that the coat with the Joseph name on it you mentioned earlier could refer to some other individual, and not the advisor of Pharaoh mentioned in the Old Testament, who had the magical ability to interpret dreams?

The tomb gives evidence of this.

No comment here, since this is presumably something from the movie you mentioned, and I have not watched that as of this comment's posting.

Your superman illustration is not even close to what all of this is talking about. It's more like some saying superman was not created until 1933 but there is a trunk with a superman drawing in it with the name 'superman' on it that hasn't been opened since 1833. Then someone not excepting that because they don't want to.

So I take it that the coat you mention is from a time period earlier than was initially thought?
Okay...how does that prove that the Old Testament Joseph, the dream-interpreter Joseph, the Joseph who had what was it, 11? older brothers, son of Jacob, is the Joseph who owned that coat?

Don't worry, I do not expect you to become a believer in the Bible or God for examining evidence.

It was my examining of evidence, or should I say the lack thereof, that changed me from believer to non-believer.

You are in no danger of my perception of what you believe changing.

You think I am concerned as to what it is you think of me?

However, you might change your mind that the Bible can still be relied upon as at least being a book with accurate history.

We found the city of Troy (or one of them I should say). Does that mean we can rely on old Greek legends and believe that Paris officiated in a beauty contest between three real goddesses?

At least in the case of the Exodus.

Be wary of putting the label 'accurate' upon the Bible. Where does that label end?

[JehovahsWitness]

JW posted:

Anyway the bible says the Israelites were in Egypt, I don't see your point is theology, doctrine or dogma which is what this sub-forum is dedicated to. The bible is quite clear, and does not present the account as metaphoric, what theological point are you submitting?

RESPONSE: Ah yes! The old Bible says…claim.

Are you again attempting to use “The Bible says so therefore it must be true� argument?

Do you understand the difference between folklore and history?

Since the bible is authorative here I am proposing that bible history IS history... So... are you essentially saying "Prove the bible true"? If not, we are discussing theology, if you have a bible based theology to propose do so, if not your post is irrelevant, its neither theology, doctrine or dogma. If I wanted to question the authenticity of the bible I would go to a more appropriate sub-forum.