When did the Messiah become God?

[polonius]

From a Greek interlinear bible John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].�

18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son,[a] who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. (NRSV)

18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God,[a] who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him. (New American Bible Revised Edition)*

*Footnote:
a. 1:18 The only Son, God: while the vast majority of later textual witnesses have another reading, “the Son, the only one� or “the only Son,� the translation above follows the best and earliest manuscripts, monogenēs theos, but takes the first term to mean not just “Only One� but to include a filial relationship with the Father, as at Lk 9:38 (“only child�) or Hb 11:17 (“only son�) and as translated at Jn 1:14. The Logos is thus “only Son� and God but not Father/God.

It must also be realized that Matthew, Mark, and Luke report Jesus as being the “Messiah� but never God himself.

About 85 AD the early Christians began to consider Jesus to be divine. This is implied in the Gospel of John written about 95 AD. John’s gospel is the only one with the seven “I am…� sayings not reported in the synoptics. It also had Thomas say “My Lord, and my God’ not found in Mathew, Mark, or Luke.

About 85 AD, the Christians were expelled from the Jewish synagogues as apostates (“minim� ) in the Jewish 12th Benediction. This expulsion is reported in John’s Gospel. Having two Gods was a serious violation of the shema “Hear, O Israel: God is our Lord, God is one.

So the question is, “When did the messiah become God�?

[Elijah John]

When the translators started playing games with the text, to suit their own agenda?:

New International Version John 1.18, a favorite with Evangelicals:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

I doubt it goes back to the Evangelist John, but it might as well have. He gave those inclined to Jesus-worship a lot to work with.

If calling Jesus the "vine" isn't calling him "God" it's darn close. And the whole prologue "the Word WAS God" comes to mind.

It is thought that the GoJ was written around the time the early Christians were expelled from the Synagogues.

The tone of the GoJ goes well beyond "Jesus as Messiah", it goes well into "Jesus is God" territory.

If the Evangelist John's disciples have Jesus to worship, who needs the Synagogue structure?

I know of nowhere in the Hebrew Bible where the Messiah was supposed to be God, when he arrived.

If the Messiah was supposed to have been God Himself, and not merely the agent of God, one would think the Good Lord would have given His Shema believing followers a head's up that He was about to make a Messianic appearance in the flesh.

It would only have been polite.

[onewithhim]

From a Greek interlinear bible John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].�

18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son,[a] who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. (NRSV)

18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God,[a] who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him. (New American Bible Revised Edition)*

*Footnote:
a. 1:18 The only Son, God: while the vast majority of later textual witnesses have another reading, “the Son, the only one� or “the only Son,� the translation above follows the best and earliest manuscripts, monogenēs theos, but takes the first term to mean not just “Only One� but to include a filial relationship with the Father, as at Lk 9:38 (“only child�) or Hb 11:17 (“only son�) and as translated at Jn 1:14. The Logos is thus “only Son� and God but not Father/God.

It must also be realized that Matthew, Mark, and Luke report Jesus as being the “Messiah� but never God himself.

About 85 AD the early Christians began to consider Jesus to be divine. This is implied in the Gospel of John written about 95 AD. John’s gospel is the only one with the seven “I am…� sayings not reported in the synoptics. It also had Thomas say “My Lord, and my God’ not found in Mathew, Mark, or Luke.

About 85 AD, the Christians were expelled from the Jewish synagogues as apostates (“minim� ) in the Jewish 12th Benediction. This expulsion is reported in John’s Gospel. Having two Gods was a serious violation of the shema “Hear, O Israel: God is our Lord, God is one.

So the question is, “When did the messiah become God�?

The footnote to the NAB Revised Edition is faulty translation. It is understood by most scholars that the verse is NOT calling Jesus "God," that is, God Almighty. Sometimes he is referred to as "a god," but never the Almighty. (Angels are "gods" in some verses in the Bible, and so are some humans.)

John did NOT indicate that Jesus was claiming to be "I Am." There are NO sayings that Jesus spoke that meant to equate himself with the Father (God Almighty).

http://robertangle.com/ruminations/2012 ... -say-i-am/


http://robertangle.com/ruminations/2012 ... ighty-god/


It's pretty clear that Jesus did NOT say any such thing as "I am I Am," or anything close.


John could not have meant to suggest that Thomas rightly called Jesus "my God," because that would contradict everything else that he wrote. In fact, if Jesus had claimed to be God, it would've been the most revolutionary thought that could have come to light to John and other Jews, as you indicated above. He would surely have made it CLEAR that Jesus was God. There is no such clarity. John had a great chance to further write this new thinking of Jesus being God, just a few verses after Thomas' exclamation, but he did not say anything about Jesus being God. Instead he furthered the truth that Jesus was the Son of God. (John 20:31)

John even wrote about Jesus referring to the Father as "MY GOD." (John 20:17) Does God have a God??

Apostate "Christianity" started making Jesus out to be God, as you also indicated, from the end of the first century on. It was solidified in the 4th century at the Council of Nicaea...a political move on Constantine's part.


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[dio9]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

It may have been pretty early for the Greek speaking Jewish Christian converts like Stephen the first Martyr who saw Jesus as the Godlike son of man before Paul had written a single word, even before Paul believed Stephen believed Jesus was God. That's why he was stoned yes? Can't have two Gods. The trinity of oneness hadn't yet been worked out.

Luke 7;56 "and (Stephen) said, Behold, I see the
heavens opened, and the Son
of man standing on the right
hand of God.

Jesus ended his mission as Messiah on the Cross. He became God's Christ (for believers) when he was resurrected.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

It may have been pretty early for the Greek speaking Jewish Christian converts like Stephen the first Martyr who saw Jesus as the Godlike son of man before Paul had written a single word, even before Paul believed Stephen believed Jesus was God. That's why he was stoned yes? Can't have two Gods. The trinity of oneness hadn't yet been worked out.

Luke 7;56 "and (Stephen) said, Behold, I see the
heavens opened, and the Son
of man standing on the right
hand of God.

Jesus ended his mission as Messiah on the Cross. He became God's Christ (for believers) when he was resurrected.

How do you get that Stephen thought that Jesus was God out of that? Jesus was standing at the right hand of God.....he wasn't God.


And no....Stephen wasn't stoned for believing that Jesus was God. He had just told the religious leaders that they were murderers of God's "righteous One," not that Jesus was God.

"Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you are always resisting the holy spirit; as your forefathers did, so you do. Which one of the prophets did your forefathers not persecute? Yes, they killed those who made announcement in advance concerning the coming of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, you who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it." (Acts 7:51-53)

That was enough to get the leaders of the Synagogue all in a twit, gnashing their teeth at him, and killing him.

[polonius]

A problem was created in about 85 AD when it began to be believed that Jesus, in addition to being the Messiah, was divine himself.

Recall the Shema "Hear O Isreal, the Lord is One."

If Jesus too was God, there were then two Gods!

How was this resolved?

[dio9]

[Replying to post 5 by onewithhim]

I believe Stephen was referring to the Son of Man from Daniel 7:13-14;

" “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.�

Daniel's use of the Son of Man is a title attached to authority glory and sovereign power. All the people of every nation and language worship him, and his kingdom is everlasting sure does sounds Godlike to me .

Simple Stephen didn't read Hebrew or speak Aramaic, he didn't see the son of man as the second person of the holy trinity , he just saw Jesus as God coming to him on the clouds of heaven.

This son of man is more than human or an angelic messenger come to take Stephen to heaven . The son of man is higher than the angels and archangels the son of man is the son of God and the son of God is God.

[onewithhim]

A problem was created in about 85 AD when it began to be believed that Jesus, in addition to being the Messiah, was divine himself.

Recall the Shema "Hear O Isreal, the Lord is One."

If Jesus too was God, there were then two Gods!

How was this resolved?

Exactly! TWO Gods. This has never been honestly dealt with by Jesus-is-God believers. They continue to insist that there really are not two Gods but two Persons who make up God, so there is really just one God. That is not reasonable nor real. If Jesus is God, as most churches in Christendom say that he is, then there we have 1 Person = God. Then if the Father is also God, there is another Person---1 more Person = God. 1 Person + 1 Person (who are BOTH God) = 2 Persons, which equal 2 Gods.

It is not difficult to see how the two individuals are distinct personalities, each in his own right, and each Person is credited with being, of himself, GOD. How hard is it to accept that two Gods are being worshipped? It's pretty clear.

However, this reality is not accepted by the majority of Christendom. It is just ignored. The "three parts of the egg" story keeps getting spun throughout "Christian" teaching, in spite of the lack of logic, BASIC MATH, and the pleas of Jesus to honor his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3)

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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 5 by onewithhim]

I believe Stephen was referring to the Son of Man from Daniel 7:13-14;

" “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.�

Daniel's use of the Son of Man is a title attached to authority glory and sovereign power. All the people of every nation and language worship him, and his kingdom is everlasting sure does sounds Godlike to me .

Simple Stephen didn't read Hebrew or speak Aramaic, he didn't see the son of man as the second person of the holy trinity , he just saw Jesus as God coming to him on the clouds of heaven.

This son of man is more than human or an angelic messenger come to take Stephen to heaven . The son of man is higher than the angels and archangels the son of man is the son of God and the son of God is God.

It "sounds God-like" to you? Well it doesn't to me. The Ancient of Days is Jehovah, the God of the universe (Psalm 83:18, KJV). The Son of Man is Jesus Christ, and he was given authority and ruling power by his Father, Jehovah. (Matthew 28:18; Luke 1:32,33)

Stephen did not see Jesus as God coming on the clouds of heaven. Where do you see that in the Scripture?

The Son of God is not God. How can Jesus be his own son? Let's be reasonable. Jesus is the second-highest power in the universe, next to Jehovah, so how is Jesus diminished by saying that he is the Son of God but not God? He holds a unique position in all creation. Saying he is God actually diminishes him to a pagan diety, one of three Gods that are worshipped by Christendom.


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[dio9]

[Replying to post 9 by onewithhim]

are you saying there are two Gods? Jesus and Jehovah? One greater and one lesser God but both still Gods? The Son of Man Christianity has identified with Jesus is clearly pre-extent and presented as , not man , but in the form of man. As per Daniel 7: 23-24 . Daniel's Son of Man is clearly more than human.
For goodness sake this was the crux of the argument settled at Nicaea 325. That there was no time when Christ did not exist. Christ is an immortal. Sorry if that's too Greek but that was the consensus. They decided Christ is divine , one with God , of the same substance as God. Christ was not created but was as John's Gospel later declared in faith that he was pre existent and not a created creature.

This opens a lot of questions to be explored like ; Why did God think he would need a pre existing savior, from before time began ?

1. Did God pre know the humans he created would need to be saved?
2. Why did he create humans in the first place?

Seems humans have been God's headache from the beginning.

3. Is this what God wanted?

4. Did God think a savior was going to be necessary before he created Adam?