Why does God punish innocent people?

[tryme]

So, here's the thing. If the Bible is the perfect word of God, and leaves no room for guessing, why does God not save babies? Or people who have never even heard of the name Jesus? Or even been out of the jungle for that matter? And what about the mentally ill, who cannot learn your religion? Or how about babies that die before they can even speak? Jesus clearly says that unbelievers, regardless of why they don't believe, will be enjoying their afterlife in hell.

Romans 10:9-10
ok, well what if you are born mute? Or were never instructed in what to believ by no fault of your own besides the country you were born in?

Revelation 21:8
Cowardly? Really? If you're like, an abused child and so are a bit timid, you're going to hell?

[Peds nurse]

God plans to put an end to all human suffering!

It is hilarious that some individuals have acquired a copy of "God's plans." It is equally hilarious that God imposes himself on real time and lets his "plans" wait out the years.

Mr. Marco!!!! It is always a pleasure to discuss topics with you!

I don't think we have to see the blueprints to know that they exist.

Translated into an approximation of sense, we have a father watching his son suffer and deciding to act in perhaps five years time. There is no reason whatsoever for the suffering to be tolerated, when it could be stopped at once, but the father, like God, gives the bad guys respect for now. In reality, the father is acting very badly but God, his plans carefully made and laid aside, is acting well.

No one likes to suffer or to watch it happen. I have never read scripture where God enjoys such suffering of His people. I believe that in our suffering, we draw nearer to God. We hold on a little tighter to each other, and put our agenda's aside. This is a beautiful thing, Mr. Marco. Some of the most beautiful children in their suffering, have taught me more than any Sunday School class ever could about trusting God, and finding joy amidst the lowliest of times.

God even promises the memories of former sufferings will be "wiped away" meaning that even if they remember the events, those memories will no longer cause them any emotional or psychological pain.

How psychologically helpful of a negligent dad! The entire concept is hilarious but there is some sadness, too, that people actually believe in this stuff. We have such a short life-span and ignoring its passage in the expectation of a re-run in a thousand years time, to me, is awfully sad. Rather like the man who buried his talent.

I'm not convinced that we have reruns of our former life, void of emotion or feeling. What would that accomplish? I'm on the same page with you here!

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 41 by Peds nurse]

I believe that in our suffering, we draw nearer to God. We hold on a little tighter to each other, and put our agenda's aside. This is a beautiful thing, Mr. Marco. Some of the most beautiful children in their suffering, have taught me more than any Sunday School class ever could about trusting God, and finding joy amidst the lowliest of times.

PN...do us a favour and read that a few times. Pretend it's someone else who wrote it. Take the time to read it. Try saying it aloud.

When I read that, it honestly sounds to me like the person who said it takes pleasure and joy in the suffering of children.

[marco]

I don't think we have to see the blueprints to know that they exist.

It is one thing to know of the existence of God's plans but quite another to read and understand the text. You would say that God wisely leaves them open for those that seek to find and read them. Maybe.

No one likes to suffer or to watch it happen. I have never read scripture where God enjoys such suffering of His people. I believe that in our suffering, we draw nearer to God. We hold on a little tighter to each other, and put our agenda's aside.

Yes, I can see the social benefits of having a war in allowing people, as in the London Blitz, to pull together. I wouldn't then conclude war, bombing and burnings are good. People have goodness in them. Samuel Johnston said that a hanging concentrates the mind wonderfully and I suppose in some cases suffering does as well. I think I'd prefer to find another way to concentrate.

As always you find flowers in a winter garden, which makes debating with you hard, since no one wants to destroy them. Best wishes.

[JehovahsWitness]

God plans to put an end to all human suffering!

It is hilarious that some individuals have acquired a copy of "God's plans." It is equally hilarious that God imposes himself on real time and lets his "plans" wait out the years.

Mr. Marco!!!! It is always a pleasure to discuss topics with you!

I don't think we have to see the blueprints to know that they exist.

Translated into an approximation of sense, we have a father watching his son suffer and deciding to act in perhaps five years time. There is no reason whatsoever for the suffering to be tolerated, when it could be stopped at once, but the father, like God, gives the bad guys respect for now. In reality, the father is acting very badly but God, his plans carefully made and laid aside, is acting well.

No one likes to suffer or to watch it happen. I have never read scripture where God enjoys such suffering of His people. I believe that in our suffering, we draw nearer to God. We hold on a little tighter to each other, and put our agenda's aside. This is a beautiful thing, Mr. Marco. Some of the most beautiful children in their suffering, have taught me more than any Sunday School class ever could about trusting God, and finding joy amidst the lowliest of times.

God even promises the memories of former sufferings will be "wiped away" meaning that even if they remember the events, those memories will no longer cause them any emotional or psychological pain.

How psychologically helpful of a negligent dad! The entire concept is hilarious but there is some sadness, too, that people actually believe in this stuff. We have such a short life-span and ignoring its passage in the expectation of a re-run in a thousand years time, to me, is awfully sad. Rather like the man who buried his talent.

I'm not convinced that we have reruns of our former life, void of emotion or feeling. What would that accomplish? I'm on the same page with you here!

I have to say I agree with Marco and PN on this, I think its unrealistic to think of a benefit from wiping out all our negative memories, our past experiences make up part of who we are. I'm on the same page as you both here. I have to say I'm with PN, a life void of emotion and drained of all feeling is no life at all.

JW

[onewithhim]

The strange inference is that the disciples thought the man himself may have sinned before he was born to be born blind as a punishment...a thought completely unnatural to Jewish theology and only spoken after following Jesus for some 3 years. This story is a great support for our pre-earth existence when we chose to be sinners by our free will and then are sown into the human world Matt 13:36-39.

If we are clever enough, Ted, we can find illustrations in the Bible to back our viewpoint. Shakespeare in the Merchant of Venice put it slightly differently: "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." The Bible accommodates all sorts of ideas. It is from the suggestion of Christ that Catholics get the concept of transubstantiation: Hoc est enim corpus meum. (For this is my body).

The question of why does God punish the innocent is allied to why does he let the innocent suffer at the hands of the unjust. Every person who scans the Bible will find a verse that answers this question in a personal way, which is maybe a remarkable quality of the Holy Book. I wonder if the Koran is so obliging.

It just takes a little common sense to realize that Christ was actually saying to them, "This MEANS my body," or, "This SYMBOLIZES my body." IMO, surely everyone there understood his words to have this connotation.

You are correct, as I see it, in what you say about God allowing the innocent to suffer, rather than He directly causing it. And I've already expressed why he allows it.

[onewithhim]

God plans to put an end to all human suffering!

What's taking him so long?

But this raises the question "Why does God ALLOW the suffering of the innocent?" and "What is He going to do about it?".

God plans to put an end to all human suffering!

While this answers the "what is he going to do about it", the first question (why does God allow it) remains unanswered

God even promises the memories of former sufferings will be "wiped away" meaning that even if they remember the events, those memories will no longer cause them any emotional or psychological pain.

That's really not what "memories will be wiped away" means but ok

I answered the question of why God allows suffering in my post #12, so how can you say that it has gone unanswered?


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 41 by Peds nurse]

I believe that in our suffering, we draw nearer to God. We hold on a little tighter to each other, and put our agenda's aside. This is a beautiful thing, Mr. Marco. Some of the most beautiful children in their suffering, have taught me more than any Sunday School class ever could about trusting God, and finding joy amidst the lowliest of times.

PN...do us a favour and read that a few times. Pretend it's someone else who wrote it. Take the time to read it. Try saying it aloud.

When I read that, it honestly sounds to me like the person who said it takes pleasure and joy in the suffering of children.

I agree that there is a slight element of that, perhaps. But, anyway, I have to say that God does not want us to suffer; he never had that in his plans. We could always have been near to God if we merely reached out to Him and were determined to follow His counsel. Now that mankind has, in all reality, turned its back on Jehovah, it is possible to remain close to Him if we rely on Him and His strength, but He didn't plan for it to be this way.


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[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 41 by Peds nurse]

I believe that in our suffering, we draw nearer to God. We hold on a little tighter to each other, and put our agenda's aside. This is a beautiful thing, Mr. Marco. Some of the most beautiful children in their suffering, have taught me more than any Sunday School class ever could about trusting God, and finding joy amidst the lowliest of times.

PN...do us a favour and read that a few times. Pretend it's someone else who wrote it. Take the time to read it. Try saying it aloud.

When I read that, it honestly sounds to me like the person who said it takes pleasure and joy in the suffering of children.

Hey Riku!! I have read it, 3 different times, and I don't see it as you do. I didn't say I enjoy watching children suffer. I said that in their suffering, they find joy, in various things, which speaks very loudly to their strength and their faith in God. The strength of others during hard times, encourages me to be a little stronger.

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 41 by Peds nurse]

I believe that in our suffering, we draw nearer to God. We hold on a little tighter to each other, and put our agenda's aside. This is a beautiful thing, Mr. Marco. Some of the most beautiful children in their suffering, have taught me more than any Sunday School class ever could about trusting God, and finding joy amidst the lowliest of times.

PN...do us a favour and read that a few times. Pretend it's someone else who wrote it. Take the time to read it. Try saying it aloud.

When I read that, it honestly sounds to me like the person who said it takes pleasure and joy in the suffering of children.

I agree that there is a slight element of that, perhaps. But, anyway, I have to say that God does not want us to suffer; he never had that in his plans. We could always have been near to God if we merely reached out to Him and were determined to follow His counsel. Now that mankind has, in all reality, turned its back on Jehovah, it is possible to remain close to Him if we rely on Him and His strength, but He didn't plan for it to be this way.

Hello!!

The original plan was for man to walk with God. I believe that although suffering was not the original plan, God knew that suffering would take place, since He is all knowing.

[marco]

It just takes a little common sense to realize that Christ was actually saying to them, "This MEANS my body," or, "This SYMBOLIZES my body." IMO, surely everyone there understood his words to have this connotation.

The application of common sense to the pronouncements and reported deeds of Jesus doesn't work. Common sense tells us to regard the resurrection as figurative; but was it? If Christ says "this piece of bread is my body and this wine is my blood" I wonder how the application of common sense can lead us to a meaning. Why mock one magical interpretation while commending another?

Common sense tells us that a merciful God would not allow people to suffer horrendously. But he does.