Why is the Resurrection Version of Events Plausible?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

4/3/17
"AS I said before, I ant to stay n the OP and discuss God and evil. The points you raise are interesting. However, I am not going to respond to them, except to say they are important to address, but belong in another OP. Let's get back to discussing God and evil. As I said before, I would be happy continuing the discussion, so why don't you set up an OP for these issues?" - hoghead1

I have time to address this question now. According to all four Gospels the body of Jesus disappeared from Joseph's private tomb, and several weeks later the disciples of Jesus began spreading the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead. Just as the Jewish priests had predicted (Matt.27:63-64). Christians believe that Jesus returned to life and that the newly reanimated Jesus left the tomb of his own volition,and then subsequently flew off up into the sky and disappeared. What is it that you find about this particular tale that makes it even marginally plausible? More specifically, what is there about this claim that you feel that everyone else should should find perfectly plausible?

[1213]

We are all aware that Caesar was a Roman emperor, aren't we? Give to Caesar WOULD be giving to (and obeying) Rome.

Giving to Caesar what is Caesars is not obeying Caesar, it is just giving his thing back to him. And actually, if all people would have done that, Caesar’s money would have lost its value.

Jesus was murdered by Romans, so I don’t think he was in any way teaching that people should surrender to Romans and obey them, if we believe what the Bible tells.

When, where and by whom was the Bible compiled?

Fourth century and later, in Roman cities, by Roman church officials, under direction of Roman emperors.

More important is who wrote or told the story. If one is just compiling something, it doesn’t change the content of the compiled scriptures.

[Danmark]

Yes, I know people see contradictions and problems, but if person is honest and doesn’t add own meanings, there is no contradiction to OT scriptures.

So if a person sees contradictions in the Bible he is not being honest?
Here's a contradiction laid out in this very thread.

Carlz wrote:

The reason I mentioned the linen was if someone was going to steal the body,why would they take the time to unwrap it and carry out a decomposing body? The religious leaders of the day did not know Joseph was going to claim the body to bury it. Also another prophecy filled after death. Isaiah 53:9 700 years befor CHRIST

So the burial cloths had to be unwrapped for Jesus to leave the tomb, but apparently he can walk thru walls.

That Sunday evening the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,� he said.
John 20:19
This Jesus can walk thru walls and closed doors, but he can't go thru cloth?
Or is it just the "OT" that, according to you, has no contradictions if one is honest?
You accept that even an honest person finds contradictions in the NEW Testament?


_______________________
Honest people agree with me

[Zzyzx]

.

When, where and by whom was the Bible compiled?

Fourth century and later, in Roman cities, by Roman church officials, under direction of Roman emperors.

More important is who wrote or told the story.

Okay, who 'wrote or told the story'?

AND how do you KNOW 'wrote or told the story' -- when Christian theologians and scholars do not know or disagree about the source?

If one is just compiling something, it doesn’t change the content of the compiled scriptures.

Can you be assured that there was no change to 'the content of the compiled scriptures'?

If so, HOW, exactly, do you KNOW that?

[Danmark]

We are all aware that Caesar was a Roman emperor, aren't we? Give to Caesar WOULD be giving to (and obeying) Rome.

Giving to Caesar what is Caesars is not obeying Caesar, it is just giving his thing back to him. And actually, if all people would have done that, Caesar’s money would have lost its value.

These statements are astonishingly wrong. One only need read the Bible to see why:

Paying Taxes to Caesar
And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians, to trap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone's opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?� But, knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.� And they brought one. And he said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?� They said to him, “Caesar's.� Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.� And they marveled at him.

Paying taxes to Caesar IS "obeying Caesar." Jesus knew they were trying to trap him and he found a poetic way to simply tell them to pay their taxes, to follow the law; that is, to obey Caesar in this regard. Would it have been right for Jesus to tell them to use their faith as an excuse not to pay their taxes? Paul said the same thing, that the Christians should obey the secular authorities.

Paying your taxes hardly makes the currency lose its value.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 46 by 1213]

And according to that, it was shared to all. And if we continue to read the whole Bible, the disciples worked for their living. They didn’t live on other people's expense and they taught also this:

Let him who stole steal no more; but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have something to give to him who has need.
Eph. 4:28

For you know how you ought to imitate us. For we didn't behave ourselves rebelliously among you, neither did we eat bread from anyone's hand without paying for it, but in labor and travail worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you; not because we don't have the right, but to make ourselves an example to you, that you should imitate us. For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: "If anyone will not work, neither let him eat."
2 The. 3:7-10

The apostles had professions prior to hooking up with Jesus, this is true. Several were fishermen. Matthew is stated to have been a publican, or tax collector. Fishing is a very backbreaking job. And dangerous. Sailors and fishermen often could not swim. And few jobs are more of a risk to life and limb then attempting to collect taxes. But as chapter 4 of Acts indicates, the apostles were able to make a comfortable living by traveling about telling stories of the wondrous things Jesus had done.

But maybe you rather believe your story, I rather believe his story. And I understand, money and power could be strong motive, I just don’t see enough evidence for that to be the case.

I don't know how much of the story at hand is true. I am simply pointing out what the story at hand INDICATES. The apostles were able to make a comfortable living traveling around telling stories about Jesus for several years after Jesus was executed. And, except for a single occasion when they were arrested and beaten, did so with little apparent interference or persecution. Not until Chapter 12 of Acts does persecution become an actual problem. At which point all of the apostles, save Peter, disappear from the story. This is what scripture actually TELLS us, as opposed to the impression that Christians inevitably promote that the apostles were under constant heavy persecution right from the start.


Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Does "Amenemope" sound like a fine old Jewish name to you?

It don’t have to, because Joseph probably had Egyptian name also, when he was in high position in Egypt.

As I pointed out earlier, the Instruction of Amenemope dates from more than 1,000 years prior to the time of Jesus.

Wikipedia
Instruction of Amenemope (also called Instructions of Amenemopet, Wisdom of Amenemopet) is a literary work composed in Ancient Egypt, most likely during the Ramesside Period (ca. 1300–1075 BCE); it contains thirty chapters of advice for successful living, ostensibly written by the scribe Amenemope son of Kanakht as a legacy for his son. A characteristic product of the New Kingdom “Age of Personal Piety�, the work reflects on the inner qualities, attitudes, and behaviors required for a happy life in the face of increasingly difficult social and economic circumstances. It is widely regarded as one of the masterpieces of ancient near-eastern wisdom literature and has been of particular interest to modern scholars because of its relationship to the biblical Book of Proverbs.

Comparison of texts
A number of passages in the Instruction of Amenemope have been compared with the Book of Proverbs, including:
(Proverbs 22:17-18):"Incline thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, And apply thine heart to my doctrine; For it is pleasant if thou keep them in thy belly, that they may be established together upon thy lips"
(Amenemope, ch. 1):"Give thine ear, and hear what I say, And apply thine heart to apprehend; It is good for thee to place them in thine heart, let them rest in the casket of thy belly; That they may act as a peg upon thy tongue"[49]
(Proverbs 22:22):"Rob not the poor, for he is poor, neither oppress (or crush) the lowly in the gate."
(Amenemope, ch. 2):"Beware of robbing the poor, and oppressing the afflicted."[49]
(Proverbs 22:24-5): "Do not befriend the man of anger, Nor go with a wrathful man, Lest thou learn his ways and take a snare for thy soul."
(Amenemope, ch. 10): "Associate not with a passionate man, Nor approach him for conversation; Leap not to cleave to such an one; That terror carry thee not away."[49]
(Proverbs 22:29):"[if you] You see a man quick in his work, before kings will he stand, before cravens, he will not stand."
(Amenemope, ch. 30):"A scribe who is skillful in his business findeth worthy to be a courtier"[49]
(Proverbs 23:1):"When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, Consider diligently what is before thee; And put a knife to thy throat, If thou be a man given to appetite. Be not desirous of his dainties, for they are breads of falsehood."
(Amenemope, ch. 23): "Eat not bread in the presence of a ruler, And lunge not forward(?) with thy mouth before a governor(?). When thou art replenished with that to which thou has no right, It is only a delight to thy spittle. Look upon the dish that is before thee, And let that (alone) supply thy need."[49] (see above)
(Proverbs 23:4-5):"Toil not to become rich, And cease from dishonest gain; For wealth maketh to itself wings, Like an eagle that flieth heavenwards"
(Amenemope, ch. 7):"Toil not after riches; If stolen goods are brought to thee, they remain not over night with thee. They have made themselves wings like geese. And have flown into the heavens."[49]
(Proverbs 14:7):"Speak not in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of thy words"
(Amenemope, ch. 21):"Empty not thine inmost soul to everyone, nor spoil (thereby) thine influence"[49]
(Proverbs 23:10): "Remove not the widows landmark; And enter not into the field of the fatherless."
(Amenemope, ch. 6): "Remove not the landmark from the bounds of the field...and violate not the widows boundary"
(Proverbs 23:12):"Apply thine heart unto instruction and thine ears to the words of knowledge"
(Amenemope, ch. 1):"Give thine ears, hear the words that are said, give thine heart to interpret them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_of_Amenemope

Wikipedia
Book of Proverbs.
The "wisdom" genre was widespread throughout the ancient Near East, and reading Proverbs alongside the examples recovered from Egypt and Mesopotamia reveals the common ground shared by international wisdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Proverbs

[alwayson]

Scholars know where every aspect of the Gospels comes from.

For example, Jesus riding on a donkey comes from Zechariah 9.

The Gospels writers often use the exact same wording from the Septuagint. They are not trying to hide it.

Mark and Matthew, in particular, were never intended as actual history.

[rikuoamero]

Scholars know where every aspect of the Gospels comes from.

For example, Jesus riding on a donkey comes from Zechariah 9.

The Gospels writers often use the exact same wording from the Septuagint. They are not trying to hide it.

Mark and Matthew, in particular, were never intended as actual history.

What we see happening is the author of Gospel Matthew trying to make events fit what he thought was prophecy (or what he thought others thought was prophecy), while not having a full understanding Judaic texts himself.
If I am to consider Zechariah 9 a prophecy, then some of it quite plainly did not come true.
Verse 8
Never again will an oppressor overrun my people,
for now I am keeping watch. Uhh...Nazi's anyone?
Verse 10
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
His rule will extend from sea to sea
and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Whenever I talk to theists about what Jesus being King means, they say something about him being King in a spiritual, heavenly sense. Well...Zechariah quite plainly says that the messiah will be a temporal ruler, much like David was.

[alwayson]

Well...Zechariah quite plainly says that the messiah will be a temporal ruler, much like David was.

The Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact name of Jesus, him confronting Satan and being crowned king in heaven.

[rikuoamero]

Well...Zechariah quite plainly says that the messiah will be a temporal ruler, much like David was.

The Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact name of Jesus, him confronting Satan and being crowned king in heaven.

Okay...I take it my meaning has escaped you. Answer me this: Has Jesus ever ruled physical nations, as a king, not unlike David or Solomon or any other king you could care to name?

[alwayson]

Well...Zechariah quite plainly says that the messiah will be a temporal ruler, much like David was.

The Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact name of Jesus, him confronting Satan and being crowned king in heaven.

Okay...I take it my meaning has escaped you. Answer me this: Has Jesus ever ruled physical nations, as a king, not unlike David or Solomon or any other king you could care to name?

Why do I care to prove your misunderstandings?

That makes no sense.

The Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact name of Jesus, him confronting Satan and being crowned king in heaven.

Case closed.