Infinite punishment for finite sins

[Wootah]

Q: is it just that God supposedly punishes anyone by torturing them in hell for eternity? Infiinite punishment for finite sins?

A: Sins are finite. We can see this from small crimes if you steal a cow then you pay back a cow. For larger crimes the only punishment is death. It is often not fair. A mass murderer dying once does not pay for their multiple victims. That is not a problem of justice but about our rational limits on applying justice.

So if you are a good person all your life but not asking for God's mercy why are you going to hell?

Because the punishment for a crime is not in proportion to the crime but in proportion to the victim.

Two examples.

1) if you punch an adult there is a reasonable chance of no punishment or a fine. If you punch a baby there is a reasonable chance of a large punishment. Same punch, same force different punishment.

2) if you crash into another car, just a dingle, depending on the other car they may do nothing, they may ask for a few dollars or if it is an expensive car you might have to sell your home to pay for it.

With that understanding we can see that our small finite crimes are against an infinite God.

There's no means of paying that fine, there's no means of getting out of jail. But this is good news.

If God doesn't accept even the smallest of sins then how amazing must God and Heaven be? (It's the tuna that John West rejects that makes it the best. Groucho Marx said he wouldn't want to belong to a club that would let him in.)

Is hell eternal punishment? If God is good and you choose to not live with God then where ever you go will not have God there. It will not be good. And with the absence of good being in hell it will be as bad as it gets.

[agnosticatheist]

Q: is it just that God supposedly punishes anyone by torturing them in hell for eternity? Infiinite punishment for finite sins?

A: Sins are finite. We can see this from small crimes if you steal a cow then you pay back a cow. For larger crimes the only punishment is death. It is often not fair. A mass murderer dying once does not pay for their multiple victims. That is not a problem of justice but about our rational limits on applying justice.

So if you are a good person all your life but not asking for God's mercy why are you going to hell?

Because the punishment for a crime is not in proportion to the crime but in proportion to the victim.

Two examples.

1) if you punch an adult there is a reasonable chance of no punishment or a fine. If you punch a baby there is a reasonable chance of a large punishment. Same punch, same force different punishment.

2) if you crash into another car, just a dingle, depending on the other car they may do nothing, they may ask for a few dollars or if it is an expensive car you might have to sell your home to pay for it.

With that understanding we can see that our small finite crimes are against an infinite God.

There's no means of paying that fine, there's no means of getting out of jail. But this is good news.

If God doesn't accept even the smallest of sins then how amazing must God and Heaven be? (It's the tuna that John West rejects that makes it the best. Groucho Marx said he wouldn't want to belong to a club that would let him in.)

Is hell eternal punishment? If God is good and you choose to not live with God then where ever you go will not have God there. It will not be good. And with the absence of good being in hell it will be as bad as it gets.

Shouldn't this be moved to random ramblings?

[ttruscott]

Q: is it just that God supposedly punishes anyone by torturing them in hell for eternity? Infiinite punishment for finite sins?

A: Sins are finite.

I make the case for sin being infinite, not finite. Sins are infinite in evil. The tiniest sin (which I don't believe there are any such things) would put a non-elect in hell and if done by an elect would put Christ on the cross. The barest whiff of the aroma of the stench of evil must be eradicated either by redemption or by judgement.

Sins in human society may be dealt with by the authorities with mild or harsher sentences but before GOD they are the same and will be dealt with by either banishment to the outer darkness or by redemption, depending on the relationship the person has with GOD, not the sin.

Therefore if a person chooses to be eternally (infinitely) sinful in HIS sight, beyond HIS promise of redemption and salvation, then an eternal (infinite) consequence must be applied, an eternal (infinite) banishment to the outer darkness.

[OnceConvinced]

Shouldn't this be moved to random ramblings?

Moderator Clarification

If you feel a thread is in the wrong subforum, please just report the post and a moderator will look into it.

As it happens I see no reason why it should go to Random Ramblings. Debate questions have been included.

Rules
C&A Guidelines


______________

Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

[Justin108]

Because the punishment for a crime is not in proportion to the crime but in proportion to the victim.

I disagree. It's not in proportion to the victim, it's in proportion to the damage. Your first example perfectly illustrates this

1) if you punch an adult there is a reasonable chance of no punishment or a fine. If you punch a baby there is a reasonable chance of a large punishment. Same punch, same force different punishment.

The same punch will do far more damage to the baby than to the adult. It's not about who the victim is, it's about the amount of damage done to the victim.

2) if you crash into another car, just a dingle, depending on the other car they may do nothing, they may ask for a few dollars or if it is an expensive car you might have to sell your home to pay for it.

Since the expensive car will cost more, the damage is financially greater. Again, it's about damage done

With that understanding we can see that our small finite crimes are against an infinite God.

Yet the damage we do to this infinite God is virtually zero, so no... this does not justify infinite suffering.

If God doesn't accept even the smallest of sins then how amazing must God and Heaven be?

If your parents kicked you out of the house for not getting 100% in your exams, would you describe them as "amazing"?

If God is good and you choose to not live with God

I never made that choice. I don't know of many atheists who did.

then where ever you go will not have God there. It will not be good. And with the absence of good being in hell it will be as bad as it gets.

Explain how God simply not being there leads to eternal torment, pain and suffering. Is God that inadequate of an architect that whatever he designs requires constant supervision or else it will fall apart? Are you saying it is impossible for God to design a peaceful hell?

[Danmark]

What IS the question for debate here? I see an argument, but not a question for debate.

[marco]

1) if you punch an adult there is a reasonable chance of no punishment or a fine. If you punch a baby there is a reasonable chance of a large punishment. Same punch, same force different punishment.

One is not punished for "a punch" alone but for the effects, the intention etc.

2) if you crash into another car, just a dingle, depending on the other car they may do nothing, they may ask for a few dollars or if it is an expensive car you might have to sell your home to pay for it.

Well that doesn't apply in the UK where all drivers must have insurance. Then it doesn't matter what car you smash into: insurance pays. Possibly being a Catholic or a Jehovah's Witness is the equivalent of insurance.

If God doesn't accept even the smallest of sins then how amazing must God and Heaven be?

This is a mean attribution to God who is pretty merciful and realises he made humans not impeccable gods. That being so, when his imperfections are imperfect he simply says: "O, well." Apparently it is Satan who has suggested eternal punishment, as I learned elsewhere.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

1) if you punch an adult there is a reasonable chance of no punishment or a fine. If you punch a baby there is a reasonable chance of a large punishment. Same punch, same force different punishment.

I notice here that you do not expound on WHY if I punch a baby, the punishment is worse.
Might it be because the baby cannot defend itself against me?

Are we to suppose that God is so weak that mere dis-belief of his existence injures him?

With that understanding we can see that our small finite crimes are against an infinite God.

There's no means of paying that fine, there's no means of getting out of jail.

In which case, ANY punishment becomes by default 'cruel and unusual', and thus invalid at least by US legal standards.

If God doesn't accept even the smallest of sins then how amazing must God and Heaven be?

Amazingly intolerant. Christians (maybe not yourself Wootah) generally speaking like to use marriage as an analogy. In marriage, one HAS to accept, tolerate, the imperfections of their partner, or the marriage quite simply doesn't work.

If God is good and you choose to not live with God then where ever you go will not have God there. It will not be good. And with the absence of good being in hell it will be as bad as it gets.

I dunno about this. According to certain people on this website, who like to propose the Modal Ontological Argument, God is defined as being omni-present i.e. present everywhere.
So even if I were to hypothetically choose not to live with God...I wouldn't be able to actually do it. He'd be there with me, like an ever present stalker, violating my supposedly free will choice.
So basically...the MOA demands that there be no such thing as Hell.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

Sins in human society may be dealt with by the authorities with mild or harsher sentences

Be very careful where you go with this line of thought ted. You seem to be implying that governmental authorities weigh in on theological/religious issues, that the government might sentence someone to prison for doing something that is a sin according to their religion.
Basically...a theocracy.

Do you want your local, state or federal government sending your neighbour to prison because they reject the divinity of Christ?

[1213]

Q: is it just that God supposedly punishes anyone by torturing them in hell for eternity? Infiinite punishment for finite sins?...

...Is hell eternal punishment? ...

I just want to say, even if hell is eternal, it doesn’t necessary mean people live/feel or suffer in hell eternally.

Bible says that body and soul can be destroyed in hell. I don’t see how something that is destroyed could do or feel anything ever. But the “punishment� is then eternal, because there is no coming back.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

And it is also said that eternal life is for righteous, not for all.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46