Meaning of Romans 10:6-9

[jgh7]

Romans 10:6-9

6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’�[c] (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’�[d] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart�[e] (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

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I'm having trouble understanding the beginning part of this teaching. It sounds important as I often am troubled (and perhaps many) wondering "who will ascend to heaven?" and "who will descend into the abyss?" (which I assume is Hell).

What does Paul mean when he describes these two questions as akin to bringing Christ down from above and bringing Christ up from the dead?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Paul is repeating the hyperbolic rhetoric of Moses, God's word is not out of reach of each one of us (compare Deut 30:12). His point? "The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart� (Rom 10:8), in short anyone of God's people has access to sacred scripture.

JW

On a personal note, although I know its not my place: since you have said you are on a search to rediscover Christianity, please please consider re-examining basic christian teachings that you perhaps presumed you already know such as

- Does God have a name? and how important should that name be in true worship?
- Is God a trinity?
- Do all good people go to heaven?
- Do humans have an immortal soul?
- What happens at death?
- Is there such a thing as a true religion?


As Paul said, the answers to these things are right within your reach but so many simply don't reach because they think they already know the answers. I know you think you have these questions down pat already, its "baby stuff" you perhaps think, or not what you're interested in examining, but please consider re-examining them by theme in the light of the bible.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) you have already concluded that...

- God does have a name but its not important what we call him; and certainly is not one of the many indicators to identify the true religion
- Is God a trinity.
- All good people go to heaven
- All humans have an immortal soul
- At death people either go to heaven or are condemned to hell.
and
- There is no such a thing as a true religion - God doesn't care if we are in a religion or not as long as we are sincere.

... and most of all you may believe that none of these details really matters as long as one is a good person...

BUT ARE YOU SURE? Or rather, have you studied these questions in the light of scripture. You have an good mind, please consider using it as you would studying any other topic BY THEME.

Feel free to tell me to "mind my own business" but I have to go where the spirit leads; so please forgive me (ie don't report me ).


JW

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

Paul is repeating the hyperbolic rhetoric of Moses, God's word is not out of reach of each one of us (compare Deut 30:12). His point? "The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart� (Rom 10:8), in short anyone of God's people has access to sacred scripture.

Hello JehovahsWitness. Thank you for pointing out Deut 30:12. It sort of helps me understand. But I'm still unclear what Paul means to express in the parts of Romans 10:6-9 that are in parenthesis: (that is, to bring Christ down from above) and (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). What do those two parenthesized parts mean in relation to what he was saying?

On a personal note, although I know its not my place: since you have said you are on a search to rediscover Christianity, please please consider re-examining basic christian teachings that you perhaps presumed you already know such as

- Does God have a name? and how important should that name be in true worship?
- Is God a trinity?
- Do all good people go to heaven?
- Do humans have an immortal soul?
- What happens at death?
- Is there such a thing as a true religion?

I will answer these according to my current faith since you posed them.

1) I believe God has a name of whose consonants are the tetragrammaton. I'm unsure of his true name beyond that. I consider his name to be extremely important, but since nobody knows for sure his true name then I don't consider it absolutely vital for proper worship. I'm aware of the two most popular conjectures for it: Yahweh and Jehovah, but I have not done deep research on the matter. In all honesty, I prefer to never say either of these out of reverence for God, but I do not approve of the tetragrammaton being taken out of the bible when it was originally there.

2) I don't think I subscribe to the trinity doctrine. I believe the Father is above the Son. However I do believe they are all of Godly "essence" in the sense that they are unfathomably above all other creation. I don't judge Trinitarians harshly as I think they have good intentions. Since it is still such a heated debate today then it must be a challenging biblical study indeed to sort out the answer.

3) I think when you say "good" you were referring to those who stand on their works alone and not faith. I don't believe this alone qualifies for Heaven. I will simply say that I believe those who go to Heaven and Hell are the ones which God decides to go to those places. I no longer believe in someone being justified to go to Heaven by their own merits. It is noted in the bible we are all sinners and have fallen short by our own merits.

4) I doubt the human soul is immortal. I believe God can destroy it. God may very well be the only power sustaining the human soul for all I know.

5) At death a lot of stuff happens according to Revelations. But I don't look too far into the details here. On a most basic sense I believe the final judgment comes for all after death: either Heaven or Hell.

6) A true religion? I suppose only faith and the final judgment will tell. I put my faith in Christianity. Perhaps it will become more and more truthful to me as my faith grows. If the final judgment occurs, then all will know what the true religion is.

[JehovahsWitness]

I will answer these according to my current faith since you posed them.

1) I believe God has a name of whose consonants are the tetragrammaton. I'm unsure of his true name beyond that. I consider his name to be extremely important, but since nobody knows for sure his true name then I don't consider it absolutely vital for proper worship. I'm aware of the two most popular conjectures for it: Yahweh and Jehovah, but I have not done deep research on the matter. In all honesty, I prefer to never say either of these out of reverence for God, but I do not approve of the tetragrammaton being taken out of the bible when it was originally there.

2) I don't think I subscribe to the trinity doctrine. I believe the Father is above the Son. However I do believe they are all of Godly "essence" in the sense that they are unfathomably above all other creation. I don't judge Trinitarians harshly as I think they have good intentions. Since it is still such a heated debate today then it must be a challenging biblical study indeed to sort out the answer.

3) I think when you say "good" you were referring to those who stand on their works alone and not faith. I don't believe this alone qualifies for Heaven. I will simply say that I believe those who go to Heaven and Hell are the ones which God decides to go to those places. I no longer believe in someone being justified to go to Heaven by their own merits. It is noted in the bible we are all sinners and have fallen short by our own merits.

4) I doubt the human soul is immortal. I believe God can destroy it. God may very well be the only power sustaining the human soul for all I know.

5) At death a lot of stuff happens according to Revelations. But I don't look too far into the details here. On a most basic sense I believe the final judgment comes for all after death: either Heaven or Hell.

6) A true religion? I suppose only faith and the final judgment will tell. I put my faith in Christianity. Perhaps it will become more and more truthful to me as my faith grows. If the final judgment occurs, then all will know what the true religion is.

Yes your answers are about what I would have expected. Is there any room in your mind that you might be wrong on any of the points and that any number of these possible errors could lead you away not to worshipping God acceptably? Can you forsee any circumstance whatsoever where you could be persuaded to re-examine these points in an indepth theme orientated study?

You see I believe you are wrong on pretty much every single one of the points above. This is absolutely NOT said to antagonize you, but to do what I rarely if ever do on this forum, try and see if I can get you curious enough to take the questions seriously. Why? because I sincerely believe that finding accurate answers to these and questions like them will change your life.


JW

[Overcomer]

This is indeed a challenging passage and not easy to explain. When read in context, we can see that Paul is talking about the difference between "works" righteousness and "faith" righteousness. He’s trying to impress upon his readers that salvation is by faith alone and not by works. And he refers to an Old Testament passage to do it, but he doesn't use it exactly as it was used in the O.T. which makes it tricky.

The passage is from Deut. 30:12, 13 which reads:

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� Nor is it beyond the sea (abyss), so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?�

"It" refers to "righteousness".

Moses had to ascend Mount Sinai to receive the righteous Law from God. Therefore, the Law came from heaven. The Law presented rules of conduct that God wanted his people to follow. It was necessary to give them these rules because the Israelites were prone to following pagan gods and indulging in the sins that went with worshipping their idols. The Law was a gift from God to help them know right from wrong.

God delivered the Israelites by parting the Red Sea so that they could descend to its river bed and cross through it to escape the Egyptians. This is a type of deliverance that parallels our deliverance through Jesus Christ from evil and the death that results from it. And it wasn’t a deliverance that the Israelites earned. It was a total gift from God just like the Law.

If we read the entire 30th chapter of Deuteronomy, we see that Moses is warning the Israelites NOT to think they had to work to receive anything from God. They had only to trust him.

In light of that, let's look at the verses from Romans 10:

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’� (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’� (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart� (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Paul uses the references to ascending and descending to point his readers to what God has done on their behalf, for their well-being, things they couldn't have done for themselves. To be specific, he is saying to the Jews that they can't earn salvation by keeping the Law, that salvation is a gift from God, given to those who believe in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for them. Some Jews didn't understand that. Paul is telling them that confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and believing that God raised him from the dead is how one is saved.

What makes it tricky is the fact that Paul isn’t using “ascend" and "descend" in exactly the same way that Moses did in the passage from Deuteronomy 30. It is Christ who descended from heaven as God Incarnate – no one had to ascend to get him. And it is Christ who ascended from the abyss (which is often translated as "sea", thereby connecting it to the Red Sea) to sit at the right hand of God following his resurrection – no one had to go down and get him. It was all God’s will and all God’s actions, not humankind’s. We had nothing to do with any of the salvation process. Our role is only to believe and accept it.

The New Testament authors made many references to the Old Testament. Sometimes they quoted verses verbatim. Sometimes they quoted them in part. Sometimes they used them as springboards to a related, but new understanding of an O.T. passage. Sometimes they only kept the general idea of the O.T. Scripture. And sometimes they pointed out how Christ is the fulfillment of what was said centuries before.

Bottom line: Paul was using the O.T. passages to point out that now, as then, it was all about God and what he did for us, not what we could do for ourselves. The Jews were having a hard time grasping the fact that they didn’t have to stay in a right relationship with God by trying to follow the Law and making sacrifices when they inevitably failed to do so. Paul wanted them to grasp the fact that God consummated his act of salvation in Jesus Christ.

I hope that helps, tgh7. As I said, it's complicated. The Jews of his day would have understood Paul's references to these O.T. passages. It's harder for us today to grasp them without doing some research.

Here's a detailed article that might help:

https://bible.org/seriespage/24-only-ro ... ans-101-13