Even IF the resurrection is true..

[Elijah John]

Even if Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, what does that prove?

For even Paul indicates that it was God who did raising, Jesus did not resurrect himself:

Romans 10.9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #9]
But what would make the resurrection demonstrably true or even a credible claim ?

Still, why is there no better evidence?

I think the question is rather: why do we only have such extremely bad to non existent evidence?

Some witnesses for the actual resurrection or at the very least a detailed gospel narrative or pauline letter of it would come in so handy!

Why... that is the old futile question 'What evidence would convince you....?" (that the resurrection happened, that the nativity is true, that Genesis Eden and the Flood are true, the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth) The situation is, it is Too Late. Water under the bridge The evidence is already so much much against such claims that there is no way back, no evidence that can invert that conclusion. Of course the evidence that the Bible is not reliable is still not 'accepted' because nobody wants to offend religion, risk losing the religious vote or try to tax the religion industry. The work to make it known just how the evidence looks is still an ongoing struggle.

Like I say, the debate is long done, the battle to get the results known and accepted is still going on.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #11]
But real evidence would not be as bad for religion as Dianaid insists. Here she gives a shining example of one of the two directions of the ROCK AND HARD PLACE FALLACY::

(laughing)

I am enjoying this thread.

I have often said that we could find a properly carbon dated freeway offramp sign that said "Zarahemla, 5 Miles," stumble over the golden plates tucked away next to the Ark of the Covenant in some government warehouse, use the Urim and Thumim in the UN to translate languages and eat manna for breakfast every morning by picking it up off the front lawn on our way to work, and it still wouldn't be considered sufficient evidence.

(shrug)

Guess I was right.

viewtopic.php?p=408111&hilit=this+way+t ... la#p408111

(How about just one of the above authentic things? Why not give? Scientists and sceptics would fall over each other to study it or get a good look!)

[JoeyKnothead]

Even if the resurrection is true?

Many folks'll still use the event to fleece the masses.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #11]
But real evidence would not be as bad for religion as Dianaid insists. Here she gives a shining example of one of the two directions of the ROCK AND HARD PLACE FALLACY::

(laughing)

I am enjoying this thread.

I have often said that we could find a properly carbon dated freeway offramp sign that said "Zarahemla, 5 Miles," stumble over the golden plates tucked away next to the Ark of the Covenant in some government warehouse, use the Urim and Thumim in the UN to translate languages and eat manna for breakfast every morning by picking it up off the front lawn on our way to work, and it still wouldn't be considered sufficient evidence.

(shrug)

Guess I was right.

viewtopic.php?p=408111&hilit=this+way+t ... la#p408111

(How about just one of the above authentic things? Why not give? Scientists and sceptics would fall over each other to study it or get a good look!)

I suppose it's possible to come up with some scenario where a claim we all thought was done might be validated, or something we thought was validated might disproved. A lost Roman history might turn up validating the whole Gospel story. The Golden plates might turn up. After all the Abraham papyrus did, though id Joseph Smith no credit. Nor would the golden plates necessarily validate the Book of Mormon. Golden plates might exist but that might not mean that Joseph Smith could read them any more than he could read ancient Egyptian.

We may yet find out of place fossils that would make us rethink the case for evolution. But the One shot win isn't valid. Finding that science has got things seriously wrong doesn't make any particular god -claim valid. Nor would a real extra Biblical record of Jesus necessarily prove Christianity. Of course it depends what Evidence turns up. I have a Fantasy That a Expunged history will be dug up showing that Jesus was indeed a failed zealot Messiah, crucified by Rome for rebellion, just as the Gospels actually suggest.

So far as LDS goes, I'd say that has already turned up. The Abraham originals do for J. Smith's claim to translate anything and the excuses ..well I'll save the detail, but they don't wash.

[The Nice Centurion]

The Golden plates might turn up. After all the Abraham papyrus did, though id Joseph Smith no credit. Nor would the golden plates necessarily validate the Book of Mormon. Golden plates might exist but that might not mean that Joseph Smith could read them any more than he could read ancient Egyptian.

The book of Abraham and the book of Joseph are originally in ancient egyptian, while the Golden Plates are written on in reformed egyptian.

Still there are also sealed parts of the BoM still awaiting translation from the Golden Plates.

The Golden Places were deposited along with the Urim and Thumin and also the sword of Laban, by Smith, Cowdery and others in a cave inside Hill Cumorah New York. They could easily be proven by finding that cave.
And how hard could that be, locating a cave in one single earthhill?

So what stops you from journeying there and grabbing your proof?

[Inquirer]

Even if Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, what does that prove?

For even Paul indicates that it was God who did raising, Jesus did not resurrect himself:

Romans 10.9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I don't get this, how hard is it to search the web and get a multitude of articles discussing the question? The Bible itself has much to say about this too.

[TRANSPONDER]

The Golden plates might turn up. After all the Abraham papyrus did, though id Joseph Smith no credit. Nor would the golden plates necessarily validate the Book of Mormon. Golden plates might exist but that might not mean that Joseph Smith could read them any more than he could read ancient Egyptian.

The book of Abraham and the book of Joseph are originally in ancient egyptian, while the Golden Plates are written on in reformed egyptian.

Still there are also sealed parts of the BoM still awaiting translation from the Golden Plates.

The Golden Places were deposited along with the Urim and Thumin and also the sword of Laban, by Smith, Cowdery and others in a cave inside Hill Cumorah New York. They could easily be proven by finding that cave.
And how hard could that be, locating a cave in one single earthhill?

So what stops you from journeying there and grabbing your proof?

You are kidding me right? The 'Abraham' papyrus is indeed in Egyptian, but it is nothing to do with Abraham. It totally debunks Joseph Smith as being able to translate that papyrus (1) The evidence such as it is makes the Claims of LDS unconvincing to anyone who gives both sides a fair whack, and Mormons have to do the work to make any better case. Like I tell Muslims and other Christians as well as Mormons 'Look, I don't even believe in God or the OT part. That's you sunk before you even get to sidelining Christianity to push your religion'. It is certainly not my job to go on a wild goose chase for the Holy Grail i don't even believe exists. Like I say - you are surely pulling my leg.

(1) even though there are excuses, these rely on ignoring the evidence and appealing to faith.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #17]
So, if you do not want to go for the evidece: Hill Cumorah belongs to the LDS chuch.
Can you tell me what stops them from officially going there and producing the Golden Plates, Urim and Thummin, Sword of Laban and what not? All deposited there by Joseph Smith himself. And Brigham Young assured that claim to be true.

1) What is the reason you think they restain from going that easy way to produce the much needed evidence.

2) Are there some answers from LDS to that question?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Elijah John in post #1
If Jesus were resurrected it wouldn't prove that he was the Jewish Messiah, because even his resurrection wouldn't resolve his inconsistent teachings on the law of Moses.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #17]
So, if you do not want to go for the evidece: Hill Cumorah belongs to the LDS chuch.
Can you tell me what stops them from officially going there and producing the Golden Plates, Urim and Thummin, Sword of Laban and what not? All deposited there by Joseph Smith himself. And Brigham Young assured that claim to be true.

1) What is the reason you think they restain from going that easy way to produce the much needed evidence.

2) Are there some answers from LDS to that question?

That's for you to ask them, not me. Where I stand is that I do not credit the God -claim, Christianity, the origins of the LDS church or the Book of Mormon and especially the Abraham papyrus with is as demonstrably false as any religious claim I have ever seen. So that does it for me as far as LDS is concerned. Asking me to prove this or that doubt let alone going hunting for a treasure that I don't expect to be there is a futile exercise. The LDS claim fails on too many levels to convince me where I don't even buy the Bible for starters.