Why doesn't God honor disobedience?

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I don't think living your life in obedience to someone is the only way to earn honor, reward, and respect from someone else such as a parent. If you choose to disobey how your parents want you to be and how they want you to live, then they might very well say to you that you are on your own and that they won't help you out anymore. They even might punish you.

But if you fend for yourself in your life and you are a very responsible person who looks out for yourself and takes good care of yourself, then your parents might honor and respect that. They might see something great in that. I think their attitude would change and they would display a kind and rewarding attitude towards you. I think they would finally respect your preferred way of living.

Shouldn't God be the same way, too? I am talking about the gods of certain religions who punish you for disobedience. I just personally think that putting work into obedience shouldn't be the only way to be a righteous individual. If you work for yourself, the things you want, and your own goals and dreams, then I think this should also be honored and respected. I don't think something like this should deserve punishment.

Of course, I would agree though that there are certain rules to be obeyed that would deserve punishment if said rules were broken such as harming/torturing other innocent people and living things, disrespecting others, etc. But as long as you are a kind and respectful person, then I don't think living your yourself, your own desires, your own happiness, etc. should be punished, regarded as sin, and judged/condemned.

[bluethread]

Of course, I would agree though that there are certain rules to be obeyed that would deserve punishment if said rules were broken such as harming/torturing other innocent people and living things, disrespecting others, etc. But as long as you are a kind and respectful person, then I don't think living your yourself, your own desires, your own happiness, etc. should be punished, regarded as sin, and judged/condemned.

There is the rub. Everyone has their own idea where the line between harming/torturing/disrespecting and "kind and respectful" is. It isn't authoritative in this forum, however, the book of Judges examines this issue, and it is left to the reader to draw the conclusions. It is interesting how often people point to some things written in that book as examples of things that are obviously wrong, while having no problem with other things. Now, if there is a deity, should that deity mirror my standards or your standards? Where should that deity draw the line?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]

The God of the bible (YHWH) Jehovah (in English) wants us to be happy and enjoy life. Indeed if the bible is to believed, he created us for just that. The thing is since he designed and made us, he knows what makes us truly happy and a wise person would do well to listen to his guidelines.

In any case, God only punishes wrongdoing and wrong is always harmful to someone (usually oneself).

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


Learn more: How Can You Have a Happy Life?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/happy-life/

[theophile]

I don't think living your life in obedience to someone is the only way to earn honor, reward, and respect from someone else such as a parent.

Have you read the book of Job? He is praised by God for speaking against God.

You won't find a more venerable case of disobedience in the bible.

Unless maybe Jacob, who wrestles with God all night. Or Abraham, who challenges God on destroying Sodom (although perhaps not enough...).

I could go on.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by The Transcended Omniverse]

This post shows great insight and might be summarized by your

But if you fend for yourself in your life and you are a very responsible person who looks out for yourself and takes good care of yourself, then your parents might honor and respect that. They might see something great in that.

Putting the lie to some of the reactions to the post is the Biblical passage of Abraham and Isaac where the story clearly shows that God prizes obedience to God over moral behavior since he commands Abraham to kill his son to show fealty to God.

This theme is explored in The Ultimate Problem with Christian Morality.
viewtopic.php?t=29673

[theophile]

Putting the lie to some of the reactions to the post is the Biblical passage of Abraham and Isaac where the story clearly shows that God prizes obedience to God over moral behavior since he commands Abraham to kill his son to show fealty to God.

Note that the story referenced was Abraham, God and Sodom, not Isaac.

So please tell me how Abraham does not challenge God in the story actually referenced...

But since you raise the story of Isaac's sacrifice, note also that it is not Abraham's obedience per se but rather his fear of God that is being tested.

Fear of God is not a simple concept I don't think. It is not reducible to obedience in the sense of mindlessly doing whatever God tells you. For example, if you look for the first instance of fear of God in the bible, it is in Genesis 3 when Adam and Eve have realized their nakedness and are afraid of facing God (so they run and hide).

In other words, they withhold themselves (unlike Abraham who does not withhold Isaac...), putting their trust in a hiding place instead of in God. That is what it means to not fear God. It means to run away from God instead of facing God (in full fear). It means to withhold oneself instead of putting oneself out there (in the case of Abraham, putting Isaac out there).

To fear God means to put trust in God and stand out in the open against God when God comes calling.

It is not dis/obedience per se but actually has a bit of both in it (it is complex). It is putting trust in God (versus other things in this world) and hence has an aspect of obedience to it. But it is also standing against God (and other things in this world). Again, like Job, who stands against all who assail him. Or like Jacob, who wrestles with God all night. Or like Moses, who challenges God and changes God's mind. Or like Abraham, who pushes God to spare Sodom.

There is more going on here than simple dis/obedience. And so my point remains that God doesn't want pushover human beings who do whatever God says or who run and hide at the first moment of fear. Rather, God wants human beings that will stand out in the open upright and proud of who and what they are, against whatever comes against them, in the pursuit of what is right.

[Zzyzx]

.

To fear God means to put trust in God and stand out in the open against God when God comes calling.

VERY creative re-definition of 'fear'.

Rather, God wants human beings that will stand out in the open upright and proud of who and what they are, against whatever comes against them, in the pursuit of what is right.

How, exactly, do you know this about 'God'?

[theophile]

[Replying to post 7 by Zzyzx]

VERY creative re-definition of 'fear'.

The only way we can understand what fear of God means is to read the stories. When Abraham proves his fear of God, he does precisely what I say. ("Here I am" he says time and again in Genesis 22 - the exact opposite, note, of Adam and Eve. Who hide when God comes calling...)

How, exactly, do you know this about 'God'?

Because it's what the stories show. God wants an equal. An image. A likeness. One who can stand against God and be a true partner of God. Pushing God to what is right. Challenging God when God is wrong...

It's like a husband-wife relationship. Not a relationship of hierarchy and obedience (which is a result of the fall, when man starts to rule over his wife and his wife obeys), but one of true partnership and mutuality.

Isn't that what you would want if you were God? A partner? One who can push you to greater things? ... (I have no idea what use God could possibly have of a bunch of obedient little slaves...)

Again, look at Jacob. Why do you think ISRAEL becomes God's people and is named ISRAEL? Because Israel shows its willingness to be this by wrestling with God all night.

We can't stress the importance of this enough.

[ttruscott]

I don't think living your life in obedience to someone is the only way to earn honor, reward, and respect from someone else such as a parent.

If the One you are disobeying is the full measure of Rightness then any disobedience must be evil without any hope of honor, reward or respect.

In Christian terms, people do not make a good analogy because they are not righteous but are selfish with sin so GOD should not follow their way.

[Danmark]

Putting the lie to some of the reactions to the post is the Biblical passage of Abraham and Isaac where the story clearly shows that God prizes obedience to God over moral behavior since he commands Abraham to kill his son to show fealty to God.

Note that the story referenced was Abraham, God and Sodom, not Isaac.

So please tell me how Abraham does not challenge God in the story actually referenced...

But since you raise the story of Isaac's sacrifice, note also that it is not Abraham's obedience per se but rather his fear of God that is being tested.

Fear of God is not a simple concept I don't think. It is not reducible to obedience in the sense of mindlessly doing whatever God tells you.

Great example of the logic that results in accepting the Biblical accounts while maintaining belief.

A. Sodom is another example of this willful, angry and unreasonable 'god' caring more about obedience than morality. He kills someone for just looking. Somehow in this twisted 'morality' looking at something when told not to, is worse than murder. Sheesh! How does anyone believe or buy this rubbish?

B. Abraham does not challenge God at all.* He just does exactly what god asks; he tries to kill his only son just because God so instructed. This is a demand for obedience, not moral behavior.

C. Fear of God is what results in obedience. What would be more praiseworthy, what would be of greater honor to Abraham, would be:

"O! Lord! I fear you and honor you. I know you can wipe out me and my entire family. But I will not dishonor your commandment to love and to refrain from killing. I will not kill Isaac even tho' you can kill me for my refusal."

Who among us, including a god, would not honor THAT Abraham rather than the coward who just does what 'God' told him to do?

D. Show me how fear and obedience are not simple concepts. You've made no supportive argument for that claim. You've made a mere assertion.



____________________
*Maybe I missed it. Show me how Abraham resists here.
“Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.� So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.