Why Peter and Paul believed only in a visionary/dream Jesus?

[alwayson]

Remember the Gospels were written AFTER Paul's letters.

New Testament article on Encyclopedia Britannica: "The books are not arranged chronologically in the New Testament. The Epistles of Paul, for example, which address the immediate problems of local churches shortly after Christ's death, are considered to be the earliest texts."

Paul's letters indicate that both Peter and himself only knew Jesus from VISIONS/DREAMS, with the resurrection stuff explicitly said to come from "the Scriptures" aka the Septuagint.

Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact name of Jesus, him confronting Satan and being crowned king in heaven.

Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world.

Isaiah 52-53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant.

Psalm 22-24, which Mark copies the language of, describes the death-resurrection cycle.

[alwayson]

Gerd Lüdemann:
"Not once does Paul refer to Jesus as a teacher, to his words as teaching, or to [any] Christians as disciples."

[bjs]

Remember the Gospels were written AFTER Paul's letters.

New Testament article on Encyclopedia Britannica: "The books are not arranged chronologically in the New Testament. The Epistles of Paul, for example, which address the immediate problems of local churches shortly after Christ's death, are considered to be the earliest texts."

This much is accurate.

Paul's letters indicate that both Peter and himself only knew Jesus from VISIONS/DREAMS, with the resurrection stuff explicitly said to come from "the Scriptures" aka the Septuagint.

This is an extremely unusual claim. What you are saying contradicts what the overwhelming majority of people who have studied the NT say about Paul and Peter’s writings. Both writers discussed event which took place according to “the Scriptures,� but they described them as literal events. Neither made any mention of these events being dreams or visions.

In First Corinthians Paul made a rather big deal about Jesus being literally and physically resurrected from the dead. He did not even suggest that he was recording a dream of vision.

Can you support your claim? What exact did Paul or Peter say which indicated that they “only knew Jesus from visions/dreams�?

Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact name of Jesus, him confronting Satan and being crowned king in heaven.

Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world.

Isaiah 52-53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant.

Psalm 22-24, which Mark copies the language of, describes the death-resurrection cycle.

I’m not sure what any of this has to do with Paul or Peter and knowing Jesus only from dreams or visions.

[bjs]

Gerd Lüdemann:
"Not once does Paul refer to Jesus as a teacher, to his words as teaching, or to [any] Christians as disciples."

How does this further your point?

[alwayson]

Gerd Lüdemann:
"Not once does Paul refer to Jesus as a teacher, to his words as teaching, or to [any] Christians as disciples."

How does this further your point?

Paul never places Jesus on Earth.

[alwayson]

In First Corinthians Paul made a rather big deal about Jesus being literally and physically resurrected from the dead.

In 1 Cor. 15, Paul explicitly says the resurrection is "according to the Scriptures." Not real life.

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

Thats why I mentioned Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6, Daniel 9, Isaiah 52-53 and Psalm 22-24.

This is an extremely unusual claim.

Read Richard Carrier's book On the Historicity of Jesus.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 3 by bjs]

In First Corinthians Paul made a rather big deal about Jesus being literally and physically resurrected from the dead. He did not even suggest that he was recording a dream of vision.

Can you support your claim? What exact did Paul or Peter say which indicated that they “only knew Jesus from visions/dreams�?

There is of course the "FACT" that Jesus had been executed several years prior to Paul undergoing his conversion to Christianity. Which realistically only leaves dreams and hallucinations and basically believing that he saw dead people. .

[alwayson]

There was no historical Jesus.

Jesus is from the Septuagint.

Read Richard Carrier's book On the Historicity of Jesus.

[bjs]

Paul never places Jesus on Earth.

This is a non-sequitur. There is no logical way to get from “Paul did not call Jesus a teacher,� to “Paul never places Jesus on Earth.�

Read Richard Carrier's book On the Historicity of Jesus.

Carrier provides fringe theories that are rejected by the overwhelming majority of scholars across the board. Only a small handful a historians take him seriously. Even ignoring that fact, I did not ask for you to just cite a book. I asked for evidence to support your claim. What is the evidence?

There was no historical Jesus.

Jesus is from the Septuagint.

Read Richard Carrier's book On the Historicity of Jesus.

Restating flat assertions without a shred of evidence does not add anything to a debate.

[bjs]

There is of course the "FACT" that Jesus had been executed several years prior to Paul undergoing his conversion to Christianity. Which realistically only leaves dreams and hallucinations and basically believing that he saw dead people. .

What does this add to the debate? You have done nothing but state a part of your worldview and then expect us to assume a priori that it is correct.

Even if your worldview were shown to be true (that has not happened yet), the question at hand was about what is found in Paul’s letters. This post does address that.