Jehovah's Witnesses: Jesus is the Creator

[Faber]

Job 9:8
Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea. (NASB)

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone (NASB)

God "alone" is the Creator and yet the Jehovah's Witnesses affirm that the Lord Jesus shared in the creation.
Insight on the Scriptures: Not a co-Creator. The Son’s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9) Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.—Mt 19:4-6; see CREATION. (Volume 2, Jesus Christ)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002451

Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Lord Jesus is God despite the fact that He shared in the creation when the Bible teaches that God "alone" did it?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Faber]




#QUESTION: Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was a "Master Worker" working with Jehovah during the creation when Isaiah 44: 24 says God created BY himself ("alone") ?

ISAIAH 44: 24
"Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth -- who is with Me?" - Young's Literal Translation

Job 9:8
Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea. (NASB)

The bible never contradicts itself. Job 38: 4-7 indeed proves that God was not LITERALLY alone when he began creating the universe. Job reads [CAPs mine]

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
AND ALL THE ANGELS SHOUTED FOR JOY?

Thus, prior to the creation of the physical universe God therefore created his spiritual family, including his son Jesus. Since we know therefore God was not literally alone at the moment of creation, when He asks "who was with me?" at Isaiah 44 verse 24 God cannot be implying no one was present at creation but rather that no one was EQUAL to him as being the initiator of that those creative acts.

To illustrate: When someone says "no one was with me", it doesn't necessarily mean nobody was present but nobody joined them or suppoted them when they needed assistance. For example if a Union Leader suggests factory workers go on strike he might present his case and then ask "Who is WITH me?" He is not asking who is present but who is on my side ready to support this decision? Who will help me? Similarly, when someone says "I went through the whole thing alone/by myself" he is not necessarily saying there were no other humans present on earth or even aware of the situation but that he or she when through the experience in their own force, without drawing on or needing others for support.

JESUS' ROLE

While the angels WITNESSED creation and Jesus was used as a worker, the Almighty needed no one to ensure that his purpose be accomplished, he was "alone" in his position of initiator, designer and CREATOR of the universe. Jesus working for God does not mean God could not have achieved his aims without his son, since He (God) has unlimited power and resource, nor do we need to equate Jesus with God in a so called "trinity" to understand the verse in Genesis that states "Let us make man".

NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses never refer to Jesus as "The CREATOR" but believe Jesus worked under the guidance and direction of Jehovah in the creation of all things. For more on this please see my earlier post HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 001#864001







CONCLUSION: The context of Isaiah indicates the Almighty is emphasising, not his solitude, but his power, unequaled in the universe and certainly unequalled before puny humans (see Isaiah 44: 24-28 ) Isaiah is not saying God was literally "alone", it is saying he created alone, that he drew on or called on no one else to create and God ALONE can take credit for the existence of the universe and all that is in it (See Ps 83:18 ).


Further reading
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.fr ... -said.html

Jesus, God's "Masterworker" in Creation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p864013

Does the fact that Jehovah worked WITH Jesus in Creation make Jesus The Creator?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p864015

[Faber]

The angels shouted but they were not involved with the actual creating. Jesus did. Therefore Jesus is God.

[JehovahsWitness]

The angels shouted but they were not involved with the actual creating. Jesus did.

QUESTION: Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus should be viewed as a/the "Creator"?

No, the title "the Creator" is NEVER applied to Jesus in scripture. Jesus collaborated or worked with Jesus and YHWH created all things through or with Jesus, but Jehovah's position as the sole source of all life and the originator of the spiritual and physical universe is unique.

See my earlier post: Do Jehovah's Witness believe Jesus can be referred to as "The Creator"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p864001


QUESTION: Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus collaborated with God as a "Masterworker" in Creation?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only JEHOVAH (YHWH) can rightly be referred to as our Creator, because he alone is the source of all life and the only uncreated being. That said, we believe Jesus was God's first creation and together they collaborated (worked together) in the creation of all things.

Jehovah's Witnesses apply the following bible passages to Jesus Christ:

COLOSSIANS 1:15, 16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

GENESIS 1:26
God said: Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness

PROVERBS 8:30, 31
I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

The book "Come be my follower" (published by Jehovah's Witnesses) puts it this way...

" Jehovah, the Creator, worked through his Son, the Master Worker, to bring every other creation into existencefrom the spirit creatures in the heavenly realm to the immense physical universe, to the earth with its wondrous variety of plant and animal life, to the pinnacle of earthly creation: humankind. In some respects, we might liken this cooperation between Father and Son to that of an architect working with a builder, or contractor, who specializes in bringing the architect's ingenious designs to reality. When we are awed by any facet of creation, we are actually giving credit to the Great Architect. (Psalm 19:1) However, we may also call to mind the long and happy collaboration between the Creator and his “master worker." - cf chap 13 p. 131 par 8
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102007056#h=11

How do Jehovah's Witnesses explain ISAIAH 44:24?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p864001

Does Jesus collaboration with God in Creation make him a "Creator" or equal to God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p864015

Further reading : Who is Jesus Christ?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JESUS , MICHAEL, and ....HIS ROLE IN CREATION

[Faber]

a. God alone created the heavens.
b. Jesus created the heavens
c. Therefore, Jesus is God.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 5 by Faber]



QUESTION: Does the fact that Jesus worked with Jehovah God in Creation mean that he (Jesus) must necessarily be Almighty God or also be considered the Creator or his equal?


Jehovah is unique and unequaled in power, Isaiah 44:24* emphasises his unique position as the source of all life. Everyone, including his son Jesus, who is indeed described in scripture as a "Mighty God" (Isaiah 6:9), is inferior to Almighty God (YHWH) a title applied uniquely to Jehovah (YHWH) and never to Jesus.

That Jehovah has chosen to collaborate with others, delegating certain tasks to them in no way implies they become Almighty God or have the right to the be viewed as such. For example, the bible says God sent his son to earth to represent him and speak for him, thus effectively "The Word" (Jesus) was working with God. This fact alone did not make him God. Indeed if working with God means a person must BE (or be equal to)God then all Christians are Almighty God since Paul describes us all as "fellow workers"

1 CORINTHIANS 3:9
For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building."- ESV

Reasonably we cannot conclude that the mere fact of working with God in an endeavor or project makes one Almighty God or gives one the right to claim equality with that one. In a similar way, Jesus is described in scripture as a "Master worker" but never as the Creator. There is nothing in scripture that indicates Jesus should be given the title Creator or Almighty God , and his (Jesus') collaboration with the Creator in no way negates this fact.

Jehovah "creates"; Jesus "makes"



As has been said, the title "the Creator" is NEVER found in scripture refering to anyone but YHWH. Further it is interesting to note in Hebrew (the original language of the "Old Testament", the two words "create" (bara) which refers to creating out of "nothing", and "make" (asah) which covers both creation (from "nothing" but God's spirit) and other aspects such as design, development or processing. While they are often used interchangably, A Dictionary of the Hebrew Old Testament in English and German, by Koehler and Baumgartner, states regarding (bara) "create":

In the O[ld] T[estament] [this] is a theological term the subject of which is God exclusively.

So while Jesus collaborated with Jehovah in creation, he (Jesus) was dependent on YHWH Jehovah and thus cannot legitimately be refered to as the Creator or even a co-creator.



Why do Jehovah's Witnesses view Jesus as a "Masterworker" in creation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p864013

How do Jehovah's Witnesses explain ISAIAH 44:24?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p864001


JW

[Faber]

The Bible teaches that God "alone" is the Creator and yet Jesus created.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Bible teaches that God "alone" is the Creator and yet Jesus created.

b. Jesus created the heavens.

- Does the bible ever refer to Jesus as The Creator?
- Does the bible ever say or indicate Jesus Created anything independently of Yahweh (Jehovah)?


Creation declares the Glory of God
[youtube][/youtube]

[Faber]

The Bible teaches that God "alone" is the Creator and yet Jesus created.

b. Jesus created the heavens.

- Does the bible ever say or indicate Jesus Created anything independently of Yahweh (Jehovah)?

Irrelevant. The Bible teaches that God "alone" was responsible for the act of creating. The fact that the Lord Jesus created demonstrates that He is God.

[101G]

[Replying to post 1 by Faber]




#QUESTION: Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was a "Master Worker" working with Jehovah during the creation when Isaiah 44: 24 says God created BY himself ("alone") ?

ISAIAH 44: 24
"Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth -- who is with Me?" - Young's Literal Translation

Job 9:8
Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea. (NASB)

The bible never contradicts itself. Job 38: 4-7 indeed proves that God was not LITERALLY alone when he began creating the universe. Job reads [CAPs mine]

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
AND ALL THE ANGELS SHOUTED FOR JOY?

Thus, prior to the creation of the physical universe God therefore created his spiritual family, including his son Jesus. Since we know therefore God was not literally alone at the moment of creation, when He asks "who was with me?" at Isaiah 44 verse 24 God cannot be implying no one was present at creation but rather that no one was EQUAL to him as being the initiator of that those creative acts.

To illustrate: When someone says "no one was with me", it doesn't necessarily mean nobody was present but nobody joined them or suppoted them when they needed assistance. For example if a Union Leader suggests factory workers go on strike he might present his case and then ask "Who is WITH me?" He is not asking who is present but who is on my side ready to support this decision? Who will help me? Similarly, when someone says "I went through the whole thing alone/by myself" he is not necessarily saying there were no other humans present on earth or even aware of the situation but that he or she when through the experience in their own force, without drawing on or needing others for support.

JESUS' ROLE

While the angels WITNESSED creation and Jesus was used as a worker, the Almighty needed no one to ensure that his purpose be accomplished, he was "alone" in his position of initiator, designer and CREATOR of the universe. Jesus working for God does not mean God could not have achieved his aims without his son, since He (God) has unlimited power and resource, nor do we need to equate Jesus with God in a so called "trinity" to understand the verse in Genesis that states "Let us make man".

NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses never refer to Jesus as "The CREATOR" but believe Jesus worked under the guidance and direction of Jehovah in the creation of all things. For more on this please see my earlier post HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 001#864001







CONCLUSION: The context of Isaiah indicates the Almighty is emphasising, not his solitude, but his power, unequaled in the universe and certainly unequalled before puny humans (see Isaiah 44: 24-28 ) Isaiah is not saying God was literally "alone", it is saying he created alone, that he drew on or called on no one else to create and God ALONE can take credit for the existence of the universe and all that is in it (See Ps 83:18 ).


Further reading
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.fr ... -said.html

Jesus, God's "Masterworker" in Creation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 013#864013

Does the fact that Jehovah worked WITH Jesus in Creation make Jesus The Creator?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 015#864015

GINOLJC, to all.

first thanks for the response, and again I must disagree.
#1. when you said Job 38:4-7 indeed proves that God was not LITERALLY alone when he began creating the universe.

I beg the differ. clearly Isaiah 44:24 states he was alone, listen, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

here God clearly says that he's, A. "alone". and B. "by himself".

and in Job 38 there was no one with him when he created everything. the reference to morning stars, and sons of God are not speaking of angels nor any humans, ... not here in Job 38. and I can prove that by the scriptures.

but what you're missing is this.

your Jehovah whom you calls God (which is not God personal name) is really the LORD JESUS, and I can prove this also by the scriptures.

after church today we can examine these claims ok.