Was the historical Jesus a fellow believer?

[Elijah John]

1) Was Jesus of Nazareth a fellow believer in YHVH God?
Or is he God himself, the proper object of belief and devotion.

2) Did Jesus teach us to pray with him?
Or to him.

3) Does Jesus have a God? Does God have a God anywhere except in Pagan pantheons?

4) Did Jesus too, need repentance and forgiveness, salvation? If Jesus were less than perfect, does that necessarily mean that he was unrighteous?

Please answer any combination of the above with Biblical evidence.

[Faber]

1. Both (John 14:1).
2. We are to pray to Jesus (John 5:23; 14:14).
3. Both (Revelation 3:12 and Hebrews 1:8).
4. No, for He is absolutely holy in that He is the proper recipient of worship (cf. Revelation 15:4).

[Elijah John]

1. Both (John 14:1).
2. We are to pray to Jesus (John 5:23; 14:14).
3. Both (Revelation 3:12 and Hebrews 1:8).
4. No, for He is absolutely holy in that He is the proper recipient of worship (cf. Revelation 15:4).

Let the reader note that Faber uses no evidence from the Synpotic Gospels, and once again reveals a Johannine bias.

[Faber]

In the OP you wrote "Biblical evidence." If you don't want to accept John because he refutes you then you should have said so from the beginning.

John's Gospel is part of the "66 books."
viewtopic.php?t=11496

[Elijah John]

In the OP you wrote "Biblical evidence." If you don't want to accept John because he refutes you then you should have said so from the beginning.

John's Gospel is part of the "66 books."
viewtopic.php?t=11496

Don't read me wrong. Never suggested that the GoJ was not Biblical evidence. It is. But I am also making the point that for Jesus to be considered the proper object of worship instead of being a fellow believer in YHVH, one has to draw from the GoJ.

Your post proves that point.

[Faber]

That the Lord Jesus is the proper object of worship is also based on Matthew 16:27 and Mark 14:62. These passages are used in association with Daniel 7 which refer to the Lord Jesus. In Daniel 7:14 the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of 'pelach' which is the worship due unto God alone thereby demonstrating the supreme Deity of the Lord Jesus.
In Luke the Lord Jesus is also the object of worship as recorded in Luke 24:52.
viewtopic.php?t=32446

Matthew refutes your assertion.
Mark refutes your assertion.
Luke refutes your assertion.
John refutes your assertion.

Their testimony is unanimous (4 to 0).

[Elijah John]

1. Both (John 14:1).

Notice Jesus does not say "believe in the Father, believe also in me" but rather Jesus distinguishes himself from God in this verse by saying "believe in God, believe also in me".

2. We are to pray to Jesus (John 5:23; 14:14).

Neither of those verses supports that assertion.

3. Both (Revelation 3:12 and Hebrews 1:8).

Yes, Jesus has a God (YHVH), but God does not have a God. God cannot have a God, except perhaps in Polytheism.

4. No, for He is absolutely holy in that He is the proper recipient of worship (cf. Revelation 15:4).

Then why does Jesus refute the implication that he is "good" by saying "no one is good but God alone"? And asking "why do you call me good"?

And why does he undergo a "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin?
Do the morally perfect need to repent or seek forgiveness?

[Faber]

Then why does Jesus refute the implication that he is "good" by saying "no one is good but God alone"? And asking "why do you call me good"?

My points about the worship of the Lord Jesus have not been refuted.

In terms of your above question, asking is not denying. If I were to travel overseas and someone saw me and heard me speak and said "You are an American" (this by the way has happened) if I asked "Why do you call me an American?" I am not denying I am an American but simply asking why this person is calling me one. Nowhere did the Lord Jesus deny being good.

That the Lord Jesus is rendered the worship due unto God alone demonstrates that He is indeed "good" and absolutely "holy" (cf. Revelation 15:4).

[Elijah John]

That the Lord Jesus is the proper object of worship is also based on Matthew 16:27

Let's just zero-in on this verse and it's context for now. Matthew 16.27 says nothing about Jesus being the proper object of worship, only that he will come in the "Glory of his Father" to judge and reward.

And in this context, he is clearly referring to the 2nd Coming, which he predicted would happen in the lifetime of his apostles. (Mathew 16.28)

That still has not happened. SO either Matthew was wrong putting that prediction on Jesus lips, or Jesus himself was wrong.

Since Jesus was wrong, (or Matthew was wrong) Jesus CANNOT be God.

And only God, not his servants, is the proper object of worship.

Jesus himself teaches this in the "Temptation in the Wilderness" episode.

[Faber]

The "glory" spoken of in Matthew 16:27 is the same "glory" mentioned in Daniel 7:14. His glory is the basis of His judgement and worship.
A few of His apostles already had a "foretaste" of His glory (Matthew 17:1f.)

You ignored (again) Mark 14:62 and Luke 24:52.