Matthew 6:9
Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (NASB)
1. The hallowing/sanctifying the name of the Lord Jesus in worship is taught in 1 Peter 3:15. See here:
viewtopic.php?t=32506
2. Mark Bird: In light of the scriptural data that support all sorts of prayer to Jesus, what do we do with Jesus’ instructions to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9)? Does the fact that the model prayer addresses the Father and not the Son mean that we are never to address the Son (or the Spirit) in prayer? No. By giving us the model prayer, Jesus was not limiting our prayers to a certain structure or verbiage. Otherwise, we would need to eliminate using the expression “in Jesus’ name� in prayer since that is not in the Lord’s Prayer. We would also need to eliminate thanksgiving from our prayers, since that does not show up in the Lord’s Prayer. But obviously, we should give thanks to God (I Thess. 5:19). Christ's words, "Our Father which art in Heaven" do not keep us from praying to Jesus any more than his words "Give us our daily bread" keep us from praying for something to drink. And the Lord’s Prayer does not keep us from petitioning the Son any more than Christ’s instructions to “enter into the closet and pray to your Father in secret� (Matt 6:6) keep us from praying in a public setting. We learn a great deal about prayer from the model prayer, but it does not teach us everything we should know about talking to God. It is appropriate to pray to the Father directly; the Lord’s Prayer clearly shows that. However, just because we are permitted to pray, and even commanded to pray to the Father, that doesn’t mean we are not permitted to pray to the Son.
http://www.wesleyantheology.com/should- ... jesus.html
Why do some continue to cite Matthew 6:9 in thinking it teaches the Lord Jesus is not to be prayed to when it really doesn't teach that at all?
Don't pray to Jesus (Matthew 6:9)?
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Don't pray to Jesus (Matthew 6:9)?
Post #51I wish you well in trying to kill the need to embrace Humpty-Dumptyism.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumptyism
Just as you misunderstand Matthew 7:1 so too you misunderstand how Greek words from the Bible are properly defined. This level of confusion is getting worse.
For further help see my last post in this thread as found here:
viewtopic.php?p=867473#867473
-bye-
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumptyism
Just as you misunderstand Matthew 7:1 so too you misunderstand how Greek words from the Bible are properly defined. This level of confusion is getting worse.
For further help see my last post in this thread as found here:
viewtopic.php?p=867473#867473
-bye-
Re: Don't pray to Jesus (Matthew 6:9)?
Post #52Let us go to the horse's mouth, or the Bird's beak, as it were. He advocates ignoring Christ's instructions to pray to the Father, suggesting that when Jesus, through Matthew, said we should pray to the Father who "knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him" Jesus didn't mean what he said. Jesus proposes and Bird disposes, it would seem.Faber wrote:
Mark Bird: In light of the scriptural data that support all sorts of prayer to Jesus, what do we do with Jesus’ instructions to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9)?
Verbiage usually carries a derogatory meaning, so Bird is perhaps being rather nasty about the language of the Lord's Prayer. Asked how one should pray, Christ said specifically that one should pray to the Father. There is no way round this. Obviously the sum total of human sentiment and expression is not there in Christ's model, but the person to whom prayer should be addressed is the Father. Were this not so, Christ could have said simply: "Do your own thing." He didn't.Faber wrote:
Does the fact that the model prayer addresses the Father and not the Son mean that we are never to address the Son (or the Spirit) in prayer? No. By giving us the model prayer, Jesus was not limiting our prayers to a certain structure or verbiage.
A better question is: When Christ says 'pray to the Father', why do people choose to ignore this instruction and invent their own prayer plans?Faber wrote:
Why do some continue to cite Matthew 6:9 in thinking it teaches the Lord Jesus is not to be prayed to when it really doesn't teach that at all?
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 9060
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1238 times
- Been thanked: 314 times
Re: Don't pray to Jesus (Matthew 6:9)?
Post #53You have joined the ranks of Bill Clinton, when he insisted on defining a word that the whole world knew the meaning of.Faber wrote:You used the word "presented" without properly defining it. If you and others can play make believe and refuse to accept how the words of the Bible are defined then I am not going to accept how you use any English word.onewithhim wrote:No, YOU are ignoring all of the reasoning that has been presented to you on these threads. You seemingly haven't even read the other points of view, which are backed up by Scripture. You take verses that don't mean that Jesus is to be worshiped and say that they do.Faber wrote:You ignored John 14:14 as well as 1 Peter 3:15.Elijah John wrote:Because Jesus clearly teaches us to pray to the Father. Jesus never taught anyone to pray to himself. Others, may have done so (perhaps), but not Jesus himself.Faber wrote:
Why do some continue to cite Matthew 6:9 in thinking it teaches the Lord Jesus is not to be prayed to when it really doesn't teach that at all?
"Hallowed be THY name", (YHVH), not "hallowed be my name".
No one has ignored John 14:14, I Peter 3:15 or any other scripture you have cited. You have just failed to take into consideration what others have said.
The path some have chosen inevitably leads to a total break down in communication. Black is red and red is black. Let's play make believe with all the words.
Have fun eh!
Re: Don't pray to Jesus (Matthew 6:9)?
Post #54Wrong.
It doesn't read to pray only to the Father nor does it teach that. That is simply an assumption on your part.
Re: Don't pray to Jesus (Matthew 6:9)?
Post #55No. Different from what you say is not wrong.Faber wrote:
Wrong.
If we take everything into consideration it ceases to be an assumption, but a valid conclusion. Jesus was asked: HOW should we pray?Faber wrote:
It doesn't read to pray only to the Father nor does it teach that. That is simply an assumption on your part.
He answered in the vocative case with: OUR FATHER..... and he addressed this format of prayer entirely to OUR FATHER. Conclusion: he wants us to pray to the Father.
Your conclusion - no he wants us to pray to other beings, such as to Jesus and perhaps the Holy Spirit or the angels. There is nothing at all in Christ's instructions to suggest this, so this is more than an assumption: it is a wild guess. Had such prayer been acceptable, that would have formed part of the answer that Christ gave. We reasonably conclude that we should NOT pray to Jesus or anyone else but God.
Post #57
Passages don't teach; they offer information which people interpret. It would seem that you, or those you have been following, have misinterpreted some passages. Simply declaring that somewhere, somehow it is possible to construe Jesus is God doesn't amount to an argument. We need much more than the specialised definitions of certain words to make Jesus into a God.Faber wrote: Other passages teach that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of payer.
Importantly, where does he ever say this himself?
Post #58
marco wrote:Passages don't teach; they offer information which people interpret. It would seem that you, or those you have been following, have misinterpreted some passages. Simply declaring that somewhere, somehow it is possible to construe Jesus is God doesn't amount to an argument. We need much more than the specialised definitions of certain words to make Jesus into a God.Faber wrote: Other passages teach that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of payer.
Importantly, where does he ever say this himself?
I cited lexicons that teach that payer is meant. You haven't cited any.
Post #59
Your preferred form of words makes communication hard. I have made my way through hundreds of lexicons in many languages in my life but none of these tomes had a teaching qualification. As well as consulting a book one must understand the meanings given there.
Prayer, in its basic form, is a raising of the heart and mind to God. You suggest that we can raise our heart and mind to other beings. The Bible disagrees and calls this idolatry. "Don't," Yahweh thunders," put other gods in my place." That is clear, even without a lexicon.
