What positive features do you think will be present paradise

[JehovahsWitness]

People have different ideas about the ultimate destiny for the faithful.

QUESTION FOR DEBATE:

- What in your opinion is the ultimate reward for the faithful?

- What positive * features will do you believe will be a feature of this reward?[/b]

Scriptural support for your position would be appreciated

This question is for believers (although non-believers are of course welcome to participate) It is primarily *a debate to compare the various dogmas of the positive features of paradise/heaven, not any negative features which can be featured in another thread if people wish to discuss that.

Existence of God and of some kind of positive reward for the righteous is a given in this debate.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]

Just to clarify, the question is regarding Christian beliefs (rather than those in Islam and other faiths).

JW

[ttruscott]

People have different ideas about the ultimate destiny for the faithful.

QUESTION FOR DEBATE:

- What in your opinion is the ultimate reward for the faithful?

- What positive * features will do you believe will be a feature of this reward?[/b]

Scriptural support for your position would be appreciated

Since I consider that the so called "faithful" are in prison here as humans and in detox for their self chosen addiction to evil, I don't consider that they get 'rewarded' for GOD's work on their behalf to rehabilitate them and make them heaven ready...

GOD's plan was the heavenly marriage and all they did was postpone that state by indulging in lives of evil with their friends the reprobate. To be reinstated into HIS plan is certianly not a reward for anything they have done...

[Divine Insight]

I would like to answer from the perspective of both a believer and a non-believer. The reason being that I'm actually both. There was a time when I believed and therefore I can give the answer I would have given then. And now I no longer believe so it only seems right to clarify the reason for my current position.

I was definitely taught that heaven is a "reward", and this is backed up by scriptures that proclaim that Jesus himself has made this declaration. Matthew 5:12 is just one example, "Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven".

So Jesus speaks of heaven as being a "reward" on several different occasions in several different books of the Gospels.

Jesus also suggests that the righteous shall go the way of eternal life, whilst the unrighteous shall go the way of damnation. This always seemed to me to imply that heaven is a "reward" for being righteous. After all, Jesus doesn't say that the forgiven unrighteous shall receive eternal life.

So as a Christian I always saw the gift of eternal life in heaven being a "reward" for being righteous. Of course in other places in these scriptures we see conflicting claims where only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God will be saved whilst all others will be damned, etc. So these scriptures seem to be inconsistent at best and outright self-contradictory at worst, at least on this specific point of what it takes to obtain a heavenly.

There are also other places where I see grave contradictions. In once case Jesus proclaims that ninth-nine out of a hundred people will earn their way into heaven via their own righteousness. Whereas in an other place he proclaims that the gate is narrow and the path is straight and only few will make it. So again, extreme inconsistencies.

What did I think heaven would be like?

When I was still a believer I was still fairly young and didn't have a complex idea of what heaven would be like. My idea was that it would basically be pretty much the same as living on Earth only there would be no war, no criminals, no greed corporations, etc. And I also imagined that there would be no need to be "employed" in order to "make a living". After all, in heaven everything would be provided in abundance and it could hardly be considered to be "paradise" if you had to get up and go to work every morning in order to make money so you could "buy what you need".

In fact, as I grew older I began to realize that this idea of a perfect paradise in heaven actually becomes quite problematic. If things "needed" to be done to maintain it and eek out a living, then why call it a paradise? That would basically be just living on earth with no criminals or war.

Later, as I became more informed and educated, I began to see things in a very more complex manner. The fact that I was no longer a "believer" didn't stop me from speculating what might be a "practical Paradise".

At that point (and from questioning the desires of many other people) it became clear to me that my ideal "heaven" may not be desired by other people, and vice versa. I prime example is my very own sister. She has extremely different interests from me. She prefers a city life, and would definitely want most everything done for her, she also likes to have a lot of people around all the time. I prefer just the opposite, I love the solitude and peacefulness of living in the country where I can't even see my closest neighbor's house! I also prefer to do almost everything myself. It's true that I very much appreciate manufactured machines, and parts. But other than that I would rather build and maintain all my own stuff, from my vehicles, to my house, to even my computer. I love the satisfaction and control of doing everything myself.

I didn't mean to get too carried away with this example, but I think it's important to realize that my own sister would have a very different idea of what heaven should be from what I would like it to be.

One Last Observation

Again, this observation is from a "non-believer" but I can still contemplate these general ideas.

In Christianity Jesus told his disciples that he was going to go and "prepare" a place for them. This brings up the question of why Jesus would need to prepare anything? Shouldn't he already have everything prepared in advance?

I feel that this is an important question when we look at other religions. I realize you suggested to only look at Christianity, however I think this is worth taking a look at. In Buddhist folklore many of their Buddhas (Siddhartha Gautama was not the only Buddha). In fact, "Buddha" simply means "enlightened one". So there are many Buddha's in various folklore. In any case, often times these Buddha's have made this very same type of promise. They promised to go into some afterlife and "prepare" a place for their followers. And one reason given for this is that the Buddha needs to know who will be coming so that he can prepare this afterlife especially for these specific people.

Again, I don't want to get too far off track here. But I would also like to point out that Jesus proclaimed that his Father's House has "many mansions". In fact, he mentions this in the same place where he speaks of going to prepare a place for people: John.14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

This suggests to me that if there exist as "heaven" it is itself broken up into "many mansions". And this would certainly fit in far better with my observation that not everyone would be happy going to the same place.

So believer or non-believer doesn't seem to make any difference. If there exists a "heavenly paradise" for people it would need to be quite diverse because not everyone would be happy going to the same place.

And of course, in Christianity Jesus himself proclaims that in his Father's house there are many mansions.

So I wouldn't expect to see everyone I currently know in my 'heavenly mansion'. I would probably need to keep in touch with my sister via heavenly emails. Just like we keep in touch now.

She doesn't like to come and visit me because she feels isolated in the country, and I don't like to go visit her because I feel claustrophobic in the city. I avoid cites at all cost. Small towns are ok, but you can have the big cities! I have no need for them at all.

So is heaven a peaceful country life, or a busy city life?

Or is it different for everyone like a house with many mansions?

According to John 14:2 Jesus describes it as having many mansions. But can we trust this to be true? He seems to contradict himself on many other points. So it's hard to know when he might actually be saying something that's true.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

Do you believe those in heaven will have an actual job or work to accomplish?

JW

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

Do you believe those in heaven will have an actual job or work to accomplish?

JW

I no longer believe in "heaven".

But I think that this question is an interesting question to ask.

It seems to me that if there is nothing that needs to be done in heaven it could potentially be an extremely boring experience. On the other hand, if things need to be done, then it falls short of being the "perfect paradise" that it's supposed to be.

A heaven that needs to be "kept up" or maintained in any way would then necessarily "deteriorate" if not kept up. So what makes heaven, "heaven" other than the people who are "keeping it up"? This seems to be highly problematic don't you think?

Also let's consider the idea of having a "Career" in heaven.

I actually enjoy doing constructive things. I've always been a workaholic. Even though I'm retired today I continue to do constructive project daily because that's what I enjoy doing.

But what kind of a career could I have in heaven?

My first choice on Earth would be scientist. But there would surely be no need for scientists in heaven. That would imply that everything isn't yet understood.

My second choice might be Research and Development of technological machines. But again, why would that need to be done in heaven? In heaven all the design "bugs" should already be worked out of everything. Surely 747's don't crash in heaven?

I actually enjoy manufacturing. Although I like to finish an entire project and do it my way. I wouldn't want to just work continually making the same parts over and over again like many factory workers do here on earth. But again, should things even need to be built in heaven? And if so would personal craftsmanship even come into play? Part of the reason I like to build things is to experience the satisfaction of having done a "good job". But in heaven wouldn't everyone need to be the "perfect craftsman"? Surely we couldn't have some people in heaven producing junk?

The problems with working in heaven become infinite.

I would also like to be a musician and play musical instruments. Something I'm not very good at here on earth even though I try.

But how would that even work in heaven? If I could play all my musical instruments perfectly without effort or practice, where would there be any satisfaction in that? And if I had to practice and play less then great music, why call it heaven?

Everything becomes problematic in heaven.

There would be no need for any lawyers, police, judges, firefighters, military, or even congress, governors or anything along those lines. So people who are interested in those type of careers would need to find something else to do.

Would we need automobiles, airplanes, boats, etc.? Or do people just fly around in heaven like birds with wings on their backs? And if so, where are they going and why are they going there? What are they going to do after they get there?

There would be no need for doctors, nurses, or even hospitals, and certainly no need for all the companies that build the technologies to maintain hospitals.

In short, what would people even do in heaven?

It seems to me that while the idea of a "Heaven" is attractive to the human imagination, the practical problems with it are simply overwhelming.

What do you think heaven will be like, and what will people be doing in heaven?

Also do you believe in angels, and that they have wings? If so doesn't this imply that there will be an air atmosphere in heaven through which the angels can fly?

Do imagine that when you get to heaven you will still have a physical human body that needs to breath air? Will you be able to fly in heaven? And if so, why should you need wings? Shouldn't you be able to simply levitate?

In fact, why do angels need wings? Why don't they just levitate without having to beat wings against the air?

Surely you can see where this whole paradigm is extremely problematic?

It's a very tempting thing to want to believe in. But does it truly make any sense?

[JehovahsWitness]

It's a very tempting thing to want to believe in.

Why? Why do you say this? What do you deem to be "tempting" about it?

[Divine Insight]

It's a very tempting thing to want to believe in.

Why? Why do you say this? What do you deem to be "tempting" about it?

What's tempting about it is that it's a totally open fantasy. Everyone is welcome to imagine "Heaven" to be anything they so desire. More importantly they are told that no matter how great they can imagine heaven to be it will actually be even better than what they have imagined because God is so great that we can't even begin to imagine just how great heaven could even be.

The problem with this fantasy is that there is nothing to it. There is no reason to believe that such an imaginary place exists anymore than there is reason to believe in Santa Clause, a guy who will supposedly bring you whatever it is you desire on your wish list.

Moreover, as I have already pointed out, no matter what you imagine heaven to be like it's necessarily going to be problematic. There are reasons why an imagined "Perfect Paradise" doesn't even make any sense.

As I say, if you need to do anything in heaven, then it can't very well be perfect, otherwise why would you need to do anything? But if you don't need to do anything, then it would be the ultimate bore. So the very concept of a perfect paradise is an oxymoron.

You have asked others what they think will be the positive features of paradise. But do you have a proposal for a paradise that won't be self-contradictory?

The temptation of this religious fantasy is based upon ignoring all practical aspects of it. What people imagine is simply a place where they believe they will always be happy and content. But they don't stop to think about what that would actually require. That's why it's to tempting to believe in it. A solution to all our problems without even having to worry about how they might actually be solved.

Sure, that would indeed be quite tempting. But is it truly realistic in any possible realm? If all your problems are solved where is there any excitement, or satisfaction, or the need to do anything. And what prevents this perfect existence from becoming boring?

[JehovahsWitness]

To be reinstated into HIS plan is certianly not a reward for anything they have done...

Okay, so can you enlarge on this "reinstatement"? Will there be any positive features therein?

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Everyone is welcome to imagine "Heaven" to be anything they so desire.

Well Jehovah's Witnesses believe heaven to be the spiritual realm where God lives. We believe God faithful angels live there as well as Jesus.

Earth we believe to be a planet where humans live.

JW