What positive features do you think will be present paradise

[JehovahsWitness]

People have different ideas about the ultimate destiny for the faithful.

QUESTION FOR DEBATE:

- What in your opinion is the ultimate reward for the faithful?

- What positive * features will do you believe will be a feature of this reward?[/b]

Scriptural support for your position would be appreciated

This question is for believers (although non-believers are of course welcome to participate) It is primarily *a debate to compare the various dogmas of the positive features of paradise/heaven, not any negative features which can be featured in another thread if people wish to discuss that.

Existence of God and of some kind of positive reward for the righteous is a given in this debate.

[tam]

[Replying to post 59 by RightReason]

Out of curiosity, what verse(s) is the following based on?

Adam was taken from outside of the Garden of Eden and brought into the Garden of Eden

You asked RightReason, but I think you meant me, since it was my quote:


Genesis 2:8, 15; Genesis 3:23

The first two speak of Adam having been formed and THEN brought into the Garden of Eden; the last speaks of Adam being cast OUT of the Garden, to work the ground from which he had been taken. (the ground he had been taken from was outside the Garden of Eden)


Peace to you both!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 61 by tam]

O okay, my bad sorry.

GENESIS 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

I'm not sure that chronology is imposed by the sentence but I admit it is somewhat ambiguous. Still what here implies that Adam was made in another realm?

I planted a garden and there I put the wooden chair (that I made) in the garden

I could have made my chair outside the garden and brought it in and I put it in the garden, but I could have planted my garden [1] then made my chair (in the garden) [2] and put it in the garden (as opposed to put it in the kitchen) [3].

If the chair is made out of elements in the garden, (the "chair" doesn't exist as a chair (rather than branches or wood) untill it is complete and functional) I don't see what stops us from concluding Adam was either created from elements in the garden or created on earth but outside of Eden at another location (which seems a little pointless, rather like going to Walmart to buy an apple when own an orchard) and placed inside.

[tam]

[Replying to post 61 by tam]

O okay, my bad sorry.

No worries.

GENESIS 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

I'm not sure that chronology is imposed by the sentence but I admit it is somewhat ambiguous.

My bad this time. Start at Genesis 2:7

And [the LORD God] formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. And [the LORD God] planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there He put the man he had formed.


There is chronology there. Actually, there is chronology imposed by the sentence itself. He did not form the man in the Garden. He PUT the man He HAD formed, into the Garden. See?



Genesis 2:15

[The LORD God] took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.


This occurs after He had formed the man, and after He had breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.


And in Genesis 3:23

So [the LORD God] banished him (adam) from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.



He was sent to work the ground outside the Garden of Eden, yes? And it is that ground - that Adam was now to work - which this verse states he had been taken from.

Still what here implies that Adam was made in another realm?

I am going to refer you back to my previous post (the one that responded to owh), rather than restate the points in it, and re-ask the questions in it, if you do not mind?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

[Replying to post 56 by tam]


Excellent post tam.

Moderator Comment

Hello RightReason, we avoid one liners here. If you like a post just press the "like" option as I see Tam has done with your post. It is lovely to show appreciation so I am not going to remove the record of what you've seen as Tam's fine expression. Go well.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 58 by onewithhim]

Posts with this reasoning are necessarily labeled absurd.

Not by most reasonable people. Perhaps only by someone that has obviously been beaten and the only thing they can think to respond is absurd!. It isn’t absurd to me, nor is it absurd to all of Christendom who do not share the JW only literal earth theory. And you never answered some of Tam's questions.

I still don't get it how you can come up with that, it's so far-fetched.

But believing there is a 144,000 member clean up crew isn’t far-fetched?

It's baffling to me just how someone of even average ability of understanding can take some of these posts seriously. You listen to a person who says they talk directly to "the Lord" on a regular basis and eschews the Bible if it contradicts what her "Lord" says.

You don't allow anyone to stop conversing with you civilly, without a final negative word, do you? You say, "Ha ha she doesn't have an answer so she's running off with her tail between her legs!" That is so mean and WRONG. I could fence (as in a sword-fight) with you all day and night, with plenty of ammo, but you remain "hard-hearted" as Scripture says (Ezekiel 3:7) ......you who think a person who rejects the Bible as God's Word and listens to voices from "her Lord" is "more reasonable" than I am.

I have answered Tam's questions. She is the person who hasn't answered all of mine.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 61 by tam]

O okay, my bad sorry.

No worries.

GENESIS 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

I'm not sure that chronology is imposed by the sentence but I admit it is somewhat ambiguous.

My bad this time. Start at Genesis 2:7

And [the LORD God] formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. And [the LORD God] planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there He put the man he had formed.


There is chronology there. Actually, there is chronology imposed by the sentence itself. He did not form the man in the Garden. He PUT the man He HAD formed, into the Garden.

Actually the events recorded in chapter 2 are not events that occurred after chapter one. Chapter 2 is merely a RECAP of the basic outline of chapter one.

.

[tam]

[Replying to post 51 by tam]

I'm trying to understand your POV. You say the Garden of Eden was the spiritual realm?

Of course.

IF the Garden of Eden was the physical realm, then where did Adam and Eve go when they were cast OUT of the Garden?

So [the LORD] God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken...


Adam was taken from outside of the Garden of Eden and brought into the Garden of Eden; then he was cast OUT yet again, to work the ground from which he had been taken.

(He now also had sin and death IN HIM (just as we have, having inherited our flesh from him), and we know that THIS flesh with its blood cannot enter the spiritual realm. However, the NEW body (the white robe) that we will be resurrected into (if we have died) or changed into (if we are still alive when Christ returns) is washed clean in the blood of the lamb. There is NO sin or death in it, but only LIFE)



Continuing...

After HE drove the man out...



Out of the Garden of Eden...

"... He placed in front of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the Tree of Life."



Note that in none of this is it written that the Garden of Eden disappeared; or was overrun; or was destroyed. Very specifically, Adam and Eve were driven OUT Of the Garden of Eden.


So again, if the Garden of Eden was the physical realm, then where were Adam and Eve driven TO? And what happened to Garden of Eden? Where is it now?

, How could that be when there were animals in the Garden of Eden?

If animals were brought into the Garden (to be named at least), then obviously animals were able to enter into that realm.


But if you are speaking of the talking snake... that was the Adversary, and not a snake at all. The Adversary is a serpent (serpent/drakon/seraph: which is a fiery, flying, flesh-eating being. Fiery (such as the seraph in the bush making it appear to be on fire); flying (with wings); flesh-eating (such as from eating the true manna from heaven; the bread of angels; the 'flesh' of Christ - the LIFE - that He said was real food)

Animals are completely physical, are they not?

Animals are said to be on God's Holy Mountain, are they not? Is not Mount Zion, God's Holy Mountain?



Just some things to consider, and perhaps ask (Christ and God) about.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Posts with this reasoning are necessarily labeled absurd. From your convoluted reasoning you have painted a scenario where animals must have been allowed into the spirit realm to be named. " IF animals were brought into the Garden of Eden," you said. You say it was the spirit realm, so it was a big "IF."

The Garden is in the spiritual realm, yes. I am not one who has a problem with animals being able to enter that garden.

Animals drank from the Rock (Christ) in the desert; animals are living and breathing beings, capable of also praising JAH. Even plants are capable of praising JAH.


In any case, as I asked above:


Animals are said to be on God's Holy Mountain, are they not? Is not Mount Zion, God's Holy Mountain?

The Bible DOESN'T SAY how different outside of the Garden was from the inside, and there is no hint that the Garden was a spiritual realm, other than your idea that it MUST have been, and I still don't get it how you can come up with that, it's so far-fetched.

See my post above (perhaps respond to each point and answer each question, as I have done with your points and questions, and you might see that there is indeed a 'hint' that the Garden was in the spiritual realm).

I did not come up with it, though. I was just able to see this truth in what is written. (Luke 24:45)


And it makes perfect sense. The Adversary (a serpent/seraph/spirit being) was there in the Garden; my Lord was there in the Garden (symbolized by the tree of LIFE). Adam and Eve could no longer enter the Garden; just as this flesh with ITS blood cannot enter the spiritual realm. This is the flesh and blood that we inherited from them AFTER they ate of the tree of knowing good (life) and bad (death) and were cast out.

(But we will receive the new body - the white robe - the spirit body, with no sin or death in it. Then we will be able to enter into the spiritual realm; come in and go out (John 10:9), just as the angels are able to to; as Adam could once do as well)


The garden of Eden was also not overrun or destroyed. How could it have been? Adam and Eve were cast out and banned from returning, and neither could their offspring enter.

So I will ask again:

And what happened to Garden of Eden? Where is it now?

He was to extend that small beautiful park to fill the whole earth.

Why? The ground was not cursed at that time. There was no sin or death in the world. No pollution; no garbage; no depleting ozone layer. What could possibly have been 'wrong' with the earth as it was, at the time it was given to Adam to govern?

Adam and Eve were to fill the whole earth by increasing in number (having children). But where did God say that Adam was to extend that 'small beautiful park' to fill the whole earth?

God created humans to have flesh

Not this flesh though, right? Not flesh with sin and death in it. Right?

No one would EVER have gone to heaven if Adam had stayed faithful to God.

Now who is pushing unsupported theories?





Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 67 by tam]

You can say what you want about me.....that I had no answer, or whatever. I can answer everything you posted here, but I'm so tired of trying to reason with a person who cannot see how he/she is distorting what the scriptures say. I have tried to reason, but I don't even think you respect "reasoning." I believe you have said as much in the past. I do respect reasoning, and God gave us a mind to do it with.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 1:18, KJV)


I can't continue to go back and forth with someone who regularly has a conversation with her "Lord" and takes what he says over the Bible.

Your conclusions are bizarre to me, and it is fruitless to keep arguing for the Scriptures over your "Lord" when you trust this "Lord" completely. (E.g., your "Lord" says that animals can enter the spirit realm, which goes against everything written about the spirit realm in the Bible.) I'm done. I don't even want to argue with you any more.

[tam]

Peace again to you owh,

[Replying to post 67 by tam]

You can say what you want about me.....that I had no answer, or whatever.

To point of fact, I have not said anything about you up to this point. I have not made it personal. (the only thing that could be taken that way is when I asked 'now who is pushing unsupported theories' ... when you stated something unsupported... in response to your stating that I am doing this.)

You, however, have said many things about me. I have not responded to those until now; not even to correct them. I have tried to respond to your points and questions, without making personal remarks about you.

I can answer everything you posted here,

So you say.

but I'm so tired of trying to reason with a person who cannot see how he/she is distorting what the scriptures say.

I have no reason to doubt that you are tired, as you have said. But perhaps it is because you cannot show that I (she, for the record) am distorting anything?

I have tried to reason, but I don't even think you respect "reasoning." I believe you have said as much in the past.

I have never said such a thing in the past.

I have also tried to reason with you. You cannot see how you (or your religion) distorts the scriptures; do the very things you (or your religion) accuse others (or their religions) of doing (though it is true that others ALSO do these things). Such as accept and follow the teachings of men, even over Christ; such as add to/take away from what is written with personal interpretations/spin; such as find excuses/loopholes NOT to obey Christ in ALL things; etc.


But it is not up to me if you 'get' it or not. Perhaps you will 'get it' later; perhaps not at all. I have no power over that. I am a servant. I can only share (and reason) as I have been taught. Christ is the Master and the Teacher.

I do respect reasoning, and God gave us a mind to do it with.

Sure. But if you only respect reasoning that agrees with your own, or draws the same conclusions as you (or your religon) then I'm not sure that you actually do respect reasoning.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 1:18, KJV)

Yes.

I can't continue to go back and forth with someone who regularly has a conversation with her "Lord" and takes what he says over the Bible.

Dear one, you are using this as an excuse. You have yet to show anything that I have shared to be in contradiction with a) Christ, b) love, c) what is written (beginning with what Christ said, since He is the Truth and the Light)

Your conclusions are bizarre to me

As are yours to others.

Someone finding something bizarre does not make it untrue. Something being against Christ (the Truth) makes it untrue. Yes?

, and it is fruitless to keep arguing for the Scriptures over your "Lord" when you trust this "Lord" completely.

I DO trust Him completely.

But I also supported what I shared (as I have learned from my Lord) WITH what is written.

You are 'arguing' for your (or your religions) interpretation of the scriptures (as many do who are part of a particular religion).

(E.g., your "Lord" says that animals can enter the spirit realm, which goes against everything written about the spirit realm in the Bible.)

If the Garden is in the spiritual realm (as the evidence points), then if God brought the animals into the garden when he brought them before Adam to name them, then at least one thing written about the spiritual realm DOES support animals having been able to enter that realm.

You are adamant that this cannot be (though I am not sure why, considering your religion's teachings about animals being in God's Holy Mountain, which is Mount Zion, yes, which is where the 144 000 were seen standing with Christ?). It seems you are not looking at any of the evidence supplied that show the Garden to be in the spiritual realm, because of this thing with the animals.


(and again, the serpent that was IN the garden was NOT an animal; it was a seraph: the Adversary)

I'm done. I don't even want to argue with you any more.

You do not have to do anything you do not want to do.

But please recall that it is you who questioned my post, then you who became argumentative - calling my post absurd and my reasoning convoluted - when I answered your questions.

I did not want to argue on this thread. Hence I skipped over the pages of arguing preceding my first post. I simply wanted to share (out of love) those gifts that are given to the faithful, as the OP asked, so as to show how loving and awesome and generous are my Lord and my God. And also because I thought this was a lovely topic, one that might also uplift those who are faithful and/or seeking to know my Lord and His Father.



As always, I wish you peace, you and your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Out of curiosity, what verse(s) is the following based on?


Quote:
Adam was taken from outside of the Garden of Eden and brought into the Garden of Eden

One of the better explanations I could find . . .

According to some it was an earthly abode, sometimes said to have been created before the rest of the world (IV Esdras iii, 7, cf. viii, 52); others make it an adjunct of the subterranean Sheol, while still others place it in or near heaven. It was believed that there are in paradise different degrees of blessedness. Seven ranks or orders of the righteous were said to exist within it, and definitions were given both of those to whom these different positions belong and of the glories pertaining to each ("Baba bathra", 75 a, quoted by Salmond, Hastings, "Dict. of the Bible", s.v. "Paradise"). The uncertainty and confusion of the current Jewishideas concerning paradise may explain the paucity of reference to it in the New Testament. The first mention of the word occurs in Luke 23:43, where Jesus on the cross says to the penitent thief: "Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise". According to the prevailing interpretation of Catholic theologians and commentators, paradise in this instance is used as a synonym for the heaven of the blessed to which the thief would accompany the Saviour, together with the souls of the righteous of the Old Law who were awaiting the coming of the Redeemer. In II Corinthians (xii, 4) St. Paul describing one of his ecstasies tells his readers that he was "caught up into paradise". Here the term seems to indicate plainly the heavenly state or abode of the blessed implying possibly a glimpse of the beatific vision. The reference cannot be to any form of terrestrial paradise, especially when we consider the parallel expression in verse 2, where relating a similar experience he says he was "caught up to the third heaven". The third and last mention of paradise in the New Testament occurs in the Apocalypse (2:7), where St. John, receiving in vision a Divine message for the "angel of the church of Ephesus", hears these words: "To him that overcometh, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God." In this passage the word is plainly used to designate the heavenly kingdom, though the imagery is borrowed from the description of the primeval Garden of Eden in the Book of Genesis. According to Catholic theology based on the Biblical account, the original condition of our first parents was one of perfect innocence and integrity. By the latter is meant that they were endowed with many prerogatives which, while pertaining to the natural order, were not due to human nature as such--hence they are sometimes termed preternatural. Principal among these were a high degree of infused knowledge, bodily immortality and freedom from pain, and immunity from evil impulses or inclinations. In other words, the lower or animal nature in man was perfectly subjected to the control of reason and the will. Besides this, our first parents were also endowed with sanctifying grace by which they were elevated to the supernatural order. But all these gratuitous endowments were forfeited through the disobedience of Adam "in whom all have sinned", and who was "a figure of Him who was to come" (Romans 5) and restore fallen man, not to an earthly, but to a heavenly paradise.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14519a.htm