A comparison between "faith" and reason

[polonius]

Wikipedia presents the simplest comparison between reason and faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality

“Faith and rationality are two ideologies that exist in varying degrees of conflict or compatibility.

Rationality is based on reason or facts. Faith is belief in inspiration, revelation, or authority.

The word faith sometimes refers to a belief that is held with lack of reason or evidence, a belief that is held in spite of or against reason or evidence, or it can refer to belief based upon a degree of evidential warrant.�

Broadly speaking, there are two categories of views regarding the relationship between faith and rationality:

1. Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.

2. Fideism holds that faith is necessary and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.�


Opinions?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 30 by Justin108]

Hummm induction?

1. the act of inducing, bringing about, or causing: induction of the hypnotic state.
2. the act of inducting; introduction; initiation.
3. formal installation in an office, benefice, or the like.

I don't see what you're talking about. I'm not 'inducing' that the Sun exists when I can't see it.

At anyrate you have changed the direction of the thread. Are you done talking about faith and reason?

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 30 by Justin108]

Hummm induction?

1. the act of inducing, bringing about, or causing: induction of the hypnotic state.
2. the act of inducting; introduction; initiation.
3. formal installation in an office, benefice, or the like.

I don't see what you're talking about. I'm not 'inducing' that the Sun exists when I can't see it.

Induction in the philosophical sense

Induction is a specific form of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support a conclusion, but do not ensure it.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... hilosophy)

At anyrate you have changed the direction of the thread. Are you done talking about faith and reason?

I am still discussing faith and reason. You claim that the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow is an example of faith. I would like to know of a Christian-specific example of faith that is as convincing as the sun rising? I doubt I'll get an answer as you tend to find any excuse you can to avoid answering questions regarding support for your belief.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 30 by Justin108]

Hummm induction?

1. the act of inducing, bringing about, or causing: induction of the hypnotic state.
2. the act of inducting; introduction; initiation.
3. formal installation in an office, benefice, or the like.

I don't see what you're talking about. I'm not 'inducing' that the Sun exists when I can't see it.

Induction in the philosophical sense

Induction is a specific form of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support a conclusion, but do not ensure it.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... hilosophy)

Ah I see. No that is not what I'm talking about. Your conclusion is wrong. My evidence is real evidence. It's not a construction in my mind or a feeling in anyway. The evidence I have seen is tangible.

At anyrate you have changed the direction of the thread. Are you done talking about faith and reason?

I am still discussing faith and reason. You claim that the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow is an example of faith. I would like to know of a Christian-specific example of faith that is as convincing as the sun rising? I doubt I'll get an answer as you tend to find any excuse you can to avoid answering questions regarding support for your belief.

I do not see any reason to try and convince you understand faith the way I see it. 1 Corinthians 9:26 says, "Therefore, the way I am running is not aimlessly; the way I am aiming my blows is so as not to be striking the air." This principle is why I don't debate with some people. If answering your questions was worth it but it's a waste of time. I wanted to express my point of view of what faith is from a the Bible's standpoint and I have accomplished that. What I can't do is force others to see it the Bible's way. So I'm not going to try.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 30 by Justin108]

Hummm induction?

1. the act of inducing, bringing about, or causing: induction of the hypnotic state.
2. the act of inducting; introduction; initiation.
3. formal installation in an office, benefice, or the like.

I don't see what you're talking about. I'm not 'inducing' that the Sun exists when I can't see it.

Induction in the philosophical sense

Induction is a specific form of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support a conclusion, but do not ensure it.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent ... hilosophy)

Ah I see. No that is not what I'm talking about. Your conclusion is wrong. My evidence is real evidence. It's not a construction in my mind or a feeling in anyway. The evidence I have seen is tangible.

What conclusion did I make that was wrong?
What evidence are you referring to exactly?

I am still discussing faith and reason. You claim that the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow is an example of faith. I would like to know of a Christian-specific example of faith that is as convincing as the sun rising? I doubt I'll get an answer as you tend to find any excuse you can to avoid answering questions regarding support for your belief.

I do not see any reason to try and convince you understand faith the way I see it. 1 Corinthians 9:26 says, "Therefore, the way I am running is not aimlessly; the way I am aiming my blows is so as not to be striking the air." This principle is why I don't debate with some people. If answering your questions was worth it but it's a waste of time. I wanted to express my point of view of what faith is from a the Bible's standpoint and I have accomplished that.

So you come here not to debate but to express your view? Why come to a debate forum then?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 34 by Justin108]

If you want to experience the faith I'm talking about I can't just tell you, I know you wouldn't believe me. You have to live it as I have to see the evidence for yourself. The only way to do this is to apply Matthew 6:33. I could type my entire list of evidence of my faith that is not going to get us anywhere. Until you do what God asks of you and watch Him act in your behalf, all the talking in the world is useless. Somethings are not for debate because words are no match for seeing something in action. If you don't believe me then go follow Matthew 6:33 and prove me and the Bible wrong.

[Justin108]

If you want to experience the faith I'm talking about I can't just tell you, I know you wouldn't believe me. You have to live it as I have to see the evidence for yourself. The only way to do this is to apply Matthew 6:33.

What makes you think I haven't?

I could type my entire list of evidence of my faith that is not going to get us anywhere.

If your evidence is convincing then why not just share it? The fact that you refuse simply tells me that not even you find it convincing.

Somethings are not for debate

Then why take these things... to a debate forum?

If you don't believe me then go follow Matthew 6:33 and prove me and the Bible wrong.

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be given to you.

I did. I was a Christian for 17 years. I sincerely sought the kingdom of God. I never found it. I suppose this is the part where you tell me I did it wrong? I didn't look hard enough? Something like that?

[2timothy316]

I did. I was a Christian for 17 years. I sincerely sought the kingdom of God. I never found it. I suppose this is the part where you tell me I did it wrong? I didn't look hard enough? Something like that?

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be given to you.

Do you know what the Kingdom of God is? Perhaps you were seeking the wrong thing. Though not completely from your own fault. Many people are taught the wrong about what the Kingdom of God really is. There is even a whole thread on this forum about it.

There is a second part that many people overlook too. That we should be seeking His righteousness not our own or someone else. Are you aware of what this righteousness is that we are supposed to be seeking?

Are you so sure that God isn't acting in you life right now? Do/did you expect rivers and seas to be split before you and see halos around people's heads? What did someone promise you and what does Jehovah actually promise in the Bible? Do they match up?

When it says, 'all these things will be added to you'. Are you aware what those things are? Those 'other things' are the evidence I'm speaking about. That scripture is a guarantee to a person, now matter who they are, the kind of person they were and no matter where they live if they are seeking the kingdom and God's righteousness then food, clothing and shelter will be provided. Those are just the basics. There are other promises too. Peace, comfort and friendship are other things that are promised as well. The Bible says, "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that no matter what we ask according to his will, he hears us." 1 John 5:14.

Now you asked where did you go wrong. From what I can tell you stopped seeking. Looking hard enough isn't the problem. The Bible speaks of people that just simply stumble on to evidence of truth. Someone or something mislead you to stop. So if you stop looking for evidence, then yes you will never find any. It's like a person that has been born under a perpetually cloudy sky. Because they never move and go looking for the Sun or study anything about it, then of course they will never have faith there is a Sun.

There is a story of a guy that didn't understand what faith in the truth was until he was in his 70's. Why not? He wouldn't listen or try to learn. His exact words were that he didn't listen because he was stubborn as a mule. You can watch his interview here. Its only like 4 mins. https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODInt ... 10_1_VIDEO

Faith, real faith changed his life because he started seeking the real Kingdom of God and His righteousness. It can do it for you too. But me or anyone trying to prove faith to you will not do it and if you did follow it based on me or anyone then it would be credulity and not faith.

[Justin108]

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be given to you.

Yeah.. I did that

I did. I was a Christian for 17 years. I sincerely sought the kingdom of God. I never found it. I suppose this is the part where you tell me I did it wrong? I didn't look hard enough? Something like that?

Do you know what the Kingdom of God is? Perhaps you were seeking the wrong thing.

Wow I must be psychic. You just refuse to accept the possibility that I followed Matthew 6:33 and got a different result than you? Do you know what "confirmation bias" means?

That we should be seeking His righteousness not our own or someone else.

Do you seek his righteousness? What is your opinion on slavery?

Are you so sure that God isn't acting in you life right now?

Are you so sure he's acting in yours?

Now you asked where did you go wrong. From what I can tell you stopped seeking.

17 years. How much longer should I seek? If a Muslim told you to seek Allah, would you?

So if you stop looking for evidence, then yes you will never find any.

Did Paul look for Jesus when he found him on the road to Damascus?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 38 by Justin108]

Well, I've shown you the way. Asking me questions is not going to get you answers. Jehovah has all the answers your looking for but if you are not earnestly seeking Him then you will find nothing.

“He that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.� (Hebrews 11:6)

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 38 by Justin108]
Well, I've shown you the way.

And I've told you the way doesn't work.

Asking me questions is not going to get you answers.

Great way to avoid answering pertinent questions.

Jehovah has all the answers your looking for but if you are not earnestly seeking Him then you will find nothing.

I did earnestly seek him. Your insistence that I didn't is your own confirmation bias.

“He that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.� (Hebrews 11:6)

Again, your insistence that I did not earnestly seek God is your own confirmation bias. I did earnestly seek God and you are in no position to argue with me on that.