A comparison between "faith" and reason

[polonius]

Wikipedia presents the simplest comparison between reason and faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality

“Faith and rationality are two ideologies that exist in varying degrees of conflict or compatibility.

Rationality is based on reason or facts. Faith is belief in inspiration, revelation, or authority.

The word faith sometimes refers to a belief that is held with lack of reason or evidence, a belief that is held in spite of or against reason or evidence, or it can refer to belief based upon a degree of evidential warrant.�

Broadly speaking, there are two categories of views regarding the relationship between faith and rationality:

1. Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.

2. Fideism holds that faith is necessary and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.�


Opinions?

[2timothy316]

Wow I must be psychic. You just refuse to accept the possibility that I followed Matthew 6:33 and got a different result than you? Do you know what "confirmation bias" means?

Yes I do refuse the possibility that you followed Matthew 6:33. I would think you'd be quick to tell me what you used to have faith in. What is the kingdom of God and how were you seeking it? What is God's righteousness? How did you seek it?

Did you ever think that what you were following wasn't the right thing? Did you go search? Or did you just give in quickly? I know people that have gone a lot longer than you following the wrong thing. They knew what they were being taught it wasn't right but they didn't give up but they didn't seek something else either. Most people I talk to just think everything is basically the same so why look? That is an incorrect way of looking things and it's not faith. You mentioned confirmation bias, isn't that what you are doing? Saying that what you were seeking for 17 years was the only way and now recalling it so as to fit your current beliefs? Is it possible that the compelling evidence that faith requires was not in your 17 years of teaching? Therefore you never had faith at all? Perhaps you were just following what your parents taught you? Merely following tradition? If so, you're not alone. Billions do the same thing. Even those that were raised atheist but break away from tradition and find faith.

[Justin108]

Wow I must be psychic. You just refuse to accept the possibility that I followed Matthew 6:33 and got a different result than you? Do you know what "confirmation bias" means?

Yes I do refuse the possibility that you followed Matthew 6:33.

So you admit to your own confirmation bias then? Do you believe that no atheist has ever followed Matthew 6:33? Are you saying that all atheists were insincere in their pursuit of God?

I asked you this before and I'll ask again: why don't you believe in Allah? What if your disbelief in Allah is merely the result of you not seeking him earnestly?

I would think you'd be quick to tell me what you used to have faith in.

My faith in God was far too complex to "quickly" tell you. If there is something specific that you believe I got wrong, then tell me and I'll either confirm or deny it.

Did you ever think that what you were following wasn't the right thing? Did you go search? Or did you just give in quickly?

17 years! How often do I need to say this?? Is 17 years "giving in quickly"?

I know people that have gone a lot longer than you following the wrong thing.

How do you know you're not following the wrong thing?

[otseng]

Wow I must be psychic. You just refuse to accept the possibility that I followed Matthew 6:33 and got a different result than you? Do you know what "confirmation bias" means?

Yes I do refuse the possibility that you followed Matthew 6:33. I would think you'd be quick to tell me what you used to have faith in. What is the kingdom of God and how were you seeking it? What is God's righteousness? How did you seek it?

Moderator Comment

It's best not to debate about other people and their experiences. Please just debate the topic and not about other posters.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[2timothy316]

Wow I must be psychic. You just refuse to accept the possibility that I followed Matthew 6:33 and got a different result than you? Do you know what "confirmation bias" means?

Yes I do refuse the possibility that you followed Matthew 6:33. I would think you'd be quick to tell me what you used to have faith in. What is the kingdom of God and how were you seeking it? What is God's righteousness? How did you seek it?

Moderator Comment

It's best not to debate about other people and their experiences. Please just debate the topic and not about other posters.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Ah then that will end this discussion then because there is nothing else to talk about because if we can't compare faith in what then there is no point.

[polonius]

'Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand." –Augustine of Hippo

Believe - to hold an opinion

Understand -a mental grasp

So at best Augustine's maxim is dealing with a personal opinion, but not necessarily a fact.

[ttruscott]

Did Paul look for Jesus when he found him on the road to Damascus?

I agree... Whether you seek or not, believe or not, nothing matters but GOD revealing Himself and HIS deity to a sinner for his repentance. Period. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. Knowledge of the truth does not save them... Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

In fact, everyone has had proof of HIS deity and HIS power so that they are without excuse, Rom 1:20, even Cain who pretended to be a follower of YHWH until HE gave the offering of Ba'al and started the first religious war.

Seeking must be in truth and HIS righteousness to find YHWH! Many try, many fail because they love sin more than the truth, Rom 1.

[polonius]

Did Paul look for Jesus when he found him on the road to Damascus?

I agree... Whether you seek or not, believe or not, nothing matters but GOD revealing Himself and HIS deity to a sinner for his repentance. Period. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. Knowledge of the truth does not save them... Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

In fact, everyone has had proof of HIS deity and HIS power so that they are without excuse, Rom 1:20, even Cain who pretended to be a follower of YHWH until HE gave the offering of Ba'al and started the first religious war.

Seeking must be in truth and HIS righteousness to find YHWH! Many try, many fail because they love sin more than the truth, Rom 1.

RESPONSE:

Please note that Paul says nothing in his Epistles about any Damascus road vision.

Please also note that there is three conflicting versions of the Damascus road vision in Acts.

Please also note that Acts was written about 50 years after the supposed Damascus Road vision.

Could the Damascus road vision of Paul and his followers be fictional?

[DBSmith]

Well, I like Paul's conversion story in Galatians 1: 13-24 where, vs 16, he receives knowledge of Christ, "revealed his Son"...and vs 17, he states he returned again unto Damascus (where he received his vision of Christ). So, to return again, he had to be there first which is his point and an important part of his testimony to the Galatians...not so easily dismissed.

Not fiction here, I think, ....it builds....after the Son being revealed to him, he left for Arabia for, perhaps, a whole 3 years, not sure. Most folks don't think on that. but, he returns to his city of conversion after that trip.

Perhaps, in Arabia he met up with first Temple priests who settled down there by the 10's of thousands after the Josiah reforms chased them away (Deuteronomic reforms). These first Temple priests could have taught Paul many things. Would help explain the wonderful doctrine Paul wrote to the Hebrews on differences in the priesthoods of Melchizedek and Aaron...which includes his testimony on faith, 11:1, discussed here in this forum.

[polonius]

Perhaps, in Arabia he met up with first Temple priests who settled down there by the 10's of thousands after the Josiah reforms chased them away (Deuteronomic reforms). These first Temple priests could have taught Paul many things. Would help explain the wonderful doctrine Paul wrote to the Hebrews on differences in the priesthoods of Melchizedek and Aaron...which includes his testimony on faith, 11:1, discussed here in this forum.

RESPONSE: Unfortunately, Paul didn't write Hebrews. That is one of the seven Pauline epistles that is considered to be pseudepigraphical.


"In other words, we have seven letters certainly from the historical Paul (Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon), three others probably not from him (Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians) and a final three certainly not from him (1-2 Timothy, Titus).Jul 5, 2011"
The Search for the Historical Paul: Which Letters Did He Really Write ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/john-dominic-cro ... 90387.html

[marco]

'Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand." –Augustine of Hippo

Believe - to hold an opinion

Understand -a mental grasp

So at best Augustine's maxim is dealing with a personal opinion, but not necessarily a fact.

Yes,he's simply giving advice, but who would want to take advice from the man who groaned his way through his Confessions? Accepting something is true is a sure way not to understand. Students do it all the time.

To understand everything is to forgive everything - is a better saying, though I don't believe this either.