John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God"

[Faber]

John 17:3
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (NASB)


Why is it that some cite John 17:3 in thinking the Lord Jesus is not the true God when every other instance when the "true God" is used in Scripture it refers to the true God in contradistinction to false gods (2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9 and 1 John 5:20-21)?

For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God, is Jesus a false god?

[Elijah John]

John 17:3
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (NASB)


Why is it that some cite John 17:3 in thinking the Lord Jesus is not the true God when every other instance when the "true God" is used in Scripture it refers to the true God in contradistinction to false gods (2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9 and 1 John 5:20-21)?

For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God, is Jesus a false god?

Yes, he is a true prophet, but a false God. (Like the Wizard said, "a good man, but a very bad "wizard".) But there is no good reason to believe Jesus ever presented himself as a God of any kind.

John 17.3 is evidence of this. Jesus himself (or the Evangelist Johnn putting words on Jesus lips) specifies the Father as the "only true God". And he designates himself as the one "whom you have sent".

God does not send Himself.

In short there is only one God, Jesus or Jehovah. If you want to make Jesus a God, that would be two, and that would be a violation of Jesus own Faith, Judaism.

[kayky]

The Gospel of John is a work of Jewish mysticism. It is highly unlikely that the historical Jesus said any of the things attributed to him in this book.

I do not think that first century Christians saw Jesus as literally being God, at least not in the sense that we do today. The first Jewish Christians continued to worship in the synagogues. Gentile Christians tended to meet in private homes.

After the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE and the beginning of the Jewish diaspora, the Jews wanted to maintain their Jewish identity as they had learned to do in exiles past. This required unity in belief and lifestyle. Fringe sects once tolerated were no longer welcome in the synagogues. This was a process of about 20 years, and this was when the Synoptic Gospels were written to provide liturgies for the fledgling churches in which the life of Jesus is presented in midrashic fashion with Jesus presented as the new Moses or the new Torah (Law).

It would not be until the second century when the Church consisted mainly of pagan converts that the Gospels began to be read through a Greek lens as literal biographies. The deification of Jesus grew out of this.

[Faber]

"God does not send Himself."



He didn't. God the Father sent God the Son.

[ttruscott]

God does not send Himself.

In short there is only one God, Jesus or Jehovah. If you want to make Jesus a God, that would be two, and that would be a violation of Jesus own Faith, Judaism.

Even without the doctrine of echad as a Unity of three divine Persons, I don't think this will sell to other Trinitarians. Of course the Three in Unity can send one of the Divine members of that unity wherever they see fit.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 1 by Faber]

“In like manner, the Eternal Word is declared to be τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν [‘the light the true’] (John i. 9), not denying thereby that the Baptist was also ‘a burning and a shining light’ (John v. 35), or that the faithful are ‘lights in the world’ (Phil. ii. 15; Matt. v. 14), but only claiming for a greater than all to be ‘the Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.’

“Christ proclaims Himself τὸν ἄ�τον ... τὸν ἀληθινόν· [‘the bread ... the true’] (John vi. 32), not suggesting thereby that the bread which Moses gave was not also ‘bread of heaven’ (Ps. cv. 40), but only that it was such in a secondary inferior degree; it was not food in the highest sense, inasmuch as it did not nourish up unto eternal life those that ate it (John vi. 49). He is ἡ ἄμπελος ἡ ἀληθινὴ [‘the vine the true’] (John xv. I), not thereby denying that Israel also was God's vine (Ps. lxxx. 8; Jer. 21), but affirming that none except Himself realized this name, and all which this name implied, to the full (Hos. x. I; Deut. xxxii. 32)� - p. 29, Trench’s Synonyms of the New Testament.

Perhaps the best illustration of this would be the use of the term “Christ� (or ‘Messiah’ in Hebrew) [χ�ιστός, χ�ιστοῦ, χ�ιστῷ, and χ�ιστὸν in the original Greek]. As far as Christians are concerned there is only one “true Christ,� our Savior, Jesus! We know that the Bible has also warned us about “false christs.�

However, less well-known is the fact that God himself appointed King Saul (1 Sam. 24:7, χ�ιστός) and King David (2 Sam. 23:1, χ�ιστὸν), among many others, as His christ. “Christ� (or “Messiah� in Hebrew) simply means “anointed� or “anointed one,� and those who properly bear that title are those who have been chosen by God for a special assignment. This included the high priests, prophets, and righteous kings of Israel. They all had the title “Christ� or “Christ of God� in the ancient Greek of the Septuagint Bible. Why, even the foreign king, Cyrus, was called the christ (χ�ιστῷ) of God (Is. 45:1, Septuagint) because God chose him for a special assignment!

So, even though we would say that Jesus is the only true Christ and that there have been many false Christs who have arisen, it still would not be proper to insist that any person other than Jesus who is called “christ� or “a christ� must be a false christ! We would then be saying that King David, Moses, and innumerable others chosen by God to do his will were false christs!

What we are saying, then, is that Jesus is the only true Christ in that he is the only person who is God’s anointed in the highest sense of the word!

And all others called “christ� are either false christs or faithful servants of God in a lesser sense of the word (as compared to Jesus himself)!

So, for anyone to say that he is the true (alethinos) God does not demand that all others called ‘god’ or ‘gods’ are false gods as a few trinitarian apologists imply. The inspired scriptures when speaking of faithful angels, prophets, God-appointed judges, kings, and magistrates clearly calls them “gods� on occasion (see my BOWGOD and DEF studies). These are called “gods� in the sense of faithful servants of God, representing the true God.

[Faber]

The "true God" is always used this way elsewhere in Scripture. There is not one exception.

The "true God" is in contrast to false gods (John 17:3).
1. Frederick Danker: of God in contrast to other deities, who are not real J 17:3 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, alēthinos, page 43).
2. K. H. Bartels: in Jn. 17:3, monos is linked with alēthinos, true, in contrast to the deceptive appearance (pseudos) of all alleged gods and revealers (NIDNTT 2:724, One).
3. R. C. Trench: But He is ἀληθινός (1 Thess. 1:9; John 17:3; Isai. 65:16; == ‘verus’), very God, as distinguished from idols and all other false gods, the dreams of the diseased fancy of man, with no substantial existence in the world of realities (viii. ἀληθής, ἀληθινός.)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/tre ... ectionID=8
4. W. E. Vine: John 7:28; 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 6:10 ; these declare that God fulfils the meaning of His Name, He is "very God," in distinction from all other gods, false gods (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, True, page 1170).
5. J. A. Fitzmeyer: In John 17:3 the Gospel writer interprets "eternal life" by having Jesus say, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν, "that they may know you, the only true God." Here Yahweh is implicitly contrasted with other deities (EDNT 2:441, monos).

[Elijah John]

God does not send Himself.

In short there is only one God, Jesus or Jehovah. If you want to make Jesus a God, that would be two, and that would be a violation of Jesus own Faith, Judaism.

Even without the doctrine of echad as a Unity of three divine Persons, I don't think this will sell to other Trinitarians. Of course the Three in Unity can send one of the Divine members of that unity wherever they see fit.

Do you really think the historical (read real) Jesus actually believed himself to be "God the Son" the second person of a Divine Trinity?

Remember, Jesus was a Jew, and their primary creed is the Sh'ma. No true Jew in good standing believes that "echad" means a compound unity. Rather all Jews are brought up with the understanding that the Sh'ma means God is singular in His unity. And before and above anything else, Jesus was a Jew.

To claim that Jesus is "God" is to remove him from his historical and cultural context.

[ttruscott]

God does not send Himself.

In short there is only one God, Jesus or Jehovah. If you want to make Jesus a God, that would be two, and that would be a violation of Jesus own Faith, Judaism.

Even without the doctrine of echad as a Unity of three divine Persons, I don't think this will sell to other Trinitarians. Of course the Three in Unity can send one of the Divine members of that unity wherever they see fit.

Do you really think the historical (read real) Jesus actually believed himself to be "God the Son" the second person of a Divine Trinity?

Yes, though limited in knowledge by His human incarnation, HE did know this: John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. They would stone Him for His blasphemy.

Remember, Jesus was a Jew, and their primary creed is the Sh'ma. No true Jew in good standing believes that "echad" means a compound unity.

Part of His methodology to separate Himself from the religion that had coalesced into idolatry, including the correction of echad.

Rather all Jews are brought up with the understanding that the Sh'ma means God is singular in His unity. And before and above anything else, Jesus was a Jew.

But He called the elite of the Jewish religion snakes and vipers...He led where they would not follow: Matt 23: (Woes to Scribes and Pharisees):
…32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins. 33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell? 34 Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town.…

Obviously a different kind of Jew than the nation of idolaters and secularists that the nation had become since David.

To claim that Jesus is "God" is to remove him from his historical and cultural context.

Yes, His teachings did that rather well, over and over until they killed Him.

[Elijah John]

God does not send Himself.

In short there is only one God, Jesus or Jehovah. If you want to make Jesus a God, that would be two, and that would be a violation of Jesus own Faith, Judaism.

Even without the doctrine of echad as a Unity of three divine Persons, I don't think this will sell to other Trinitarians. Of course the Three in Unity can send one of the Divine members of that unity wherever they see fit.

Do you really think the historical (read real) Jesus actually believed himself to be "God the Son" the second person of a Divine Trinity?

Yes, though limited in knowledge by His human incarnation, HE did know this: John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. They would stone Him for His blasphemy.

Remember, Jesus was a Jew, and their primary creed is the Sh'ma. No true Jew in good standing believes that "echad" means a compound unity.

Part of His methodology to separate Himself from the religion that had coalesced into idolatry, including the correction of echad.

Rather all Jews are brought up with the understanding that the Sh'ma means God is singular in His unity. And before and above anything else, Jesus was a Jew.

But He called the elite of the Jewish religion snakes and vipers...He led where they would not follow: Matt 23: (Woes to Scribes and Pharisees):
…32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins. 33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell? 34 Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town.…

Obviously a different kind of Jew than the nation of idolaters and secularists that the nation had become since David.

To claim that Jesus is "God" is to remove him from his historical and cultural context.

Yes, His teachings did that rather well, over and over until they killed Him.

Where did Jesus correct the Jewish "misunderstanding" of echad, Ted? You really believe that he called some Jewish leaders "Vipers" because they were absolute Monotheists and not Trinitarians?

I doubt it. In fact Jesus called them (SOME of Jewish leaders that is) to task not for their monotheism, but rather for their hypocrisy and hindering God's love and mercy with obsessive adherence to ritual purity law.