Was Jesus wrong?

[Elijah John]

Many, if not most Historical Jesus scholars have concluded Jesus expected the apocalypse in the lifetime of his apostles. Consider this from Wikipedia:

A great many - if not a majority - of critical Biblical scholars, going as far back as Albert Schweitzer, hold that Jesus believed that the end of history was coming within his own lifetime or within the lifetime of his contemporaries.[128]

The evidence for this thesis comes from several verses, including the following:

In Mark 8:38-9:1, Jesus says that the Son of Man will come "in the glory of the Father with the holy angels" during "this adulterous generation." Indeed, he says, "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power."
In Luke 21:35-36, Jesus urges constant, unremitting preparedness on the part of his followers in light of the imminence of the end of history and the final intervention of God. "Be alert at all times, praying to have strength to flee from all these things that are about to take place and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man."
In Mark 13:24-27, 30, Jesus describes what will happen when the end comes, saying that "the sun will grow dark and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and ... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory." He gives a timeline for this event: "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place."
The Apostle Paul also seems to have shared this expectation. Toward the end of 1 Corinthians 7, he counsels Christians to avoid getting married if they can since the end of history was imminent. Speaking to the unmarried, he writes, "I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are." "I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short ... For the present form of this world is passing away." (1 Corinthians 7:26, 29, 31) In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Paul also seems to believe that he will live to witness the return of Jesus and the end of history.

According to Vermes, Jesus' announcement of the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God "was patently not fulfilled" and "created a serious embarrassment for the primitive church."[129] According to Sanders, these eschatological sayings of Jesus are "passages that many Christian scholars would like to see vanish" as "the events they predict did not come to pass, which means that Jesus was wrong."[130]

The scholars seem to have forgotten another essential passage, which supports their argument.

Matthew 16.27-28:

27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

28“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.�

For debate, how can Jesus be God since he was wrong about the apocalypse?

And what happens to Paul's credibility, since he too, and other New Testament writers expected Jesus 2nd coming in their own lifetimes?

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Possibly the Genesis rationalization that a time mentioned in the Bible is not Earthly time but godly time will be "resurrected" here...

[alwayson]

The sayings of Jesus in the Gospels were adopted from Paul's letters.

So what does this thread actually mean?


See:
Nikolaus Walter, ‘Paul and the Early Christian Jesus-Tradition’, in Paul and Jesus: Collected Essays (ed. A.J.M. Wedderburn; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1989), pp. 51-80

[Elijah John]

The sayings of Jesus in the Gospels were adopted from Paul's letters.

So what does this thread actually mean?

I don't understand the question. I think it is pretty clear, whether or not the Gospels were influenced by Paul.

What do you think the thread means?

If Jesus was wrong, (and it sure seems he was) then he is not God. If Paul was wrong, (and it sure seems he was) he doesn't have a whole lot of credibility, at least on "end times" matters.

[alwayson]

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

The whole end times stuff in Christianity comes from the Old Testament.

The Qumran cult was obsessed with end times, and they were not Christian.

If you want specifics, I can give them.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Possibly the Genesis rationalization that a time mentioned in the Bible is not Earthly time but godly time will be "resurrected" here...

Perhaps, but no matter. Jesus audience, and Paul and his audience, have all "tasted death" and the Messiah has yet to return. And they all tasted death in practical "real time" and didn't have to wait for theological, speculative time.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

The whole end times stuff in Christianity comes from the Old Testament.

The Qumran cult was obsessed with end times, and they were not Christian.

If you want specifics, I can give them.

No need. From Daniel, and the Essenes. Yes...but that has no real bearing on the question of whether or not Jesus and Paul were wrong. And the implications thereof.

[alwayson]

[Replying to post 6 by Elijah John]

Thats a failure of the Old Testament timetable in Daniel 9, which the Gospels quote and reference.

Daniel 9 created a messianic fervor among all Jews in the early first century, inspiring several messiahs, four documented by Josephus, and ultimately the Jewish rebellion resulting in the destruction of the temple.

[1213]

...
Matthew 16.27-28:

...

28“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.�

For debate, how can Jesus be God since he was wrong about the apocalypse?

And what happens to Paul's credibility, since he too, and other New Testament writers expected Jesus 2nd coming in their own lifetimes?

The Matthew 16:27-28 continues with this:

After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him.
Matt. 17:1-3

And so Matt. 16:27-28 came true only after six days. Few of the disciples saw Jesus coming in his Kingdom.

And then the words that are often ignored:

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt. 24:36

Jesus admits he doesn’t know the exact time of the final day. He knows the signs and many of them may have already happened. It is also clear by teachings of Jesus that disciples of Jesus should be ready for it, but not necessary wait for it.

[Zzyzx]

.

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt. 24:36

Jesus admits he doesn’t know the exact time of the final day. He knows the signs and many of them may have already happened. It is also clear by teachings of Jesus that disciples of Jesus should be ready for it, but not necessary wait for it.

Of course, one-third of a 'god' doesn't know what / when another third of himself is or will be doing (but knows 'signs'). Why doesn't everybody just BELIEVE this?