So, I'd like to ask the simple question:
Before the crucifix what did demons and vampires (etc ad nauseum) run away from?
The Jews would have no power over them without that idol of Christ, correct?
So how did they get rid of demons, vampires, fairies, unicorns and so on?
Demons before the Crucifix
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OnceConvinced
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Post #11
From memory the first mention of demons in the bible is in the New Testament.
Did demons even exist before Jesus? Did the Jews believe in them? Or was this just some fantasy Jesus came up with?
Did demons even exist before Jesus? Did the Jews believe in them? Or was this just some fantasy Jesus came up with?
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
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Elijah John
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Post #12
[Replying to post 10 by Willum]
What about this reference?
Something from Jesus brother James possibly alludes to earlier Judaism:
What about this reference?
Something from Jesus brother James possibly alludes to earlier Judaism:
You believe that God is one (notice not Trinity) you do well...even demons believe, and tremble.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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OnceConvinced
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Post #13
It's funny that all they do is tremble. That probably explains why when people try to cast out demons in this day and age it never works.Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 10 by Willum]
What about this reference?
Something from Jesus brother James possibly alludes to earlier Judaism:
You believe that God is one (notice not Trinity) you do well...even demons believe, and tremble.
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
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Willum
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Post #15
[Replying to post 11 by OnceConvinced]
I suppose there is no denying that this is the cupie doll.
Yes, there were no such things as demons until the NT.
There were, gods, maybe false gods, but no demons.
It is amazing how the house of cards just falls apart with the proper application of logical logistics.
This leaves us with lots of interesting conclusions.
Jesus was as made-up as the demons.
Jesus is some kind of metaphysical alien who brought demon-alien buddies for him to cast out.
Demons just decided to show up coincidentally with the arrival of Jesus, and he had power over then for reasons yet to be explained...
I wonder what the real, dare I say, genesis of demons is?
Is the NT the first place in history to make-up demons?
Hmmm.... anybody?
I suppose there is no denying that this is the cupie doll.
Yes, there were no such things as demons until the NT.
There were, gods, maybe false gods, but no demons.
It is amazing how the house of cards just falls apart with the proper application of logical logistics.
This leaves us with lots of interesting conclusions.
Jesus was as made-up as the demons.
Jesus is some kind of metaphysical alien who brought demon-alien buddies for him to cast out.
Demons just decided to show up coincidentally with the arrival of Jesus, and he had power over then for reasons yet to be explained...
I wonder what the real, dare I say, genesis of demons is?
Is the NT the first place in history to make-up demons?
Hmmm.... anybody?
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
Post #16
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Regens Küchl]
OK, what God-power existed before Jesus to get rid of demons?
Before Jesus was born, how were spirits exorcised?
Saul went to the Witch of Endor who raised the ghost of Samuel to predict Saul's future disaster.
Yahweh presumably gifted the power of exorcism to Jesus.
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Clownboat
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Post #17
They drilled a hole in the skull to release the demons.Willum wrote: Team - this topic is about what was done about demons, fairies and vampires BEFORE Jesus and the crucifix.
See Trepanning
In ancient times, holes were drilled into a person who was behaving in what was considered an abnormal way to let out what they believed were evil spirits.[3] Evidence of trepanation has been found in prehistoric human remains from Neolithic times onward. Cave paintings indicate that people believed the practice would cure epileptic seizures, migraines, and mental disorders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanning
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Willum
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Post #18
[Replying to post 17 by Clownboat]
So you mean to tell me that before Jesus, mankind had a medical procedure for relieving pressure in the brain, that actually treated some diseases, and we, reverted to exorcism?
It reminds me that evolution pre-dated Christianity, before Christianity murdered everyone who believed in it.
So you mean to tell me that before Jesus, mankind had a medical procedure for relieving pressure in the brain, that actually treated some diseases, and we, reverted to exorcism?
It reminds me that evolution pre-dated Christianity, before Christianity murdered everyone who believed in it.
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Willum
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Post #19
[Replying to post 2 by Elijah John]
Hey EJ, you should know better than to suggest vampires didn't exist in Palestine:)
Estrie
[Replying to post 16 by marco]
So, looking up the Witch of Endor - she didn't actually communicate with demons - rather dead peoples' spirits.
Begging the question: Where were all the demons in the BCE?
They don't seem to make a showing until Jesus shows up.
That is an interesting coincidence?
Hey EJ, you should know better than to suggest vampires didn't exist in Palestine:)
Estrie
[Replying to post 16 by marco]
So, looking up the Witch of Endor - she didn't actually communicate with demons - rather dead peoples' spirits.
Begging the question: Where were all the demons in the BCE?
They don't seem to make a showing until Jesus shows up.
That is an interesting coincidence?
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Regens Küchl
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Post #20
Willum wrote: I wonder what the real, dare I say, genesis of demons is?
Is the NT the first place in history to make-up demons?
Hmmm.... anybody?
Willum wrote: So, looking up the Witch of Endor - she didn't actually communicate with demons - rather dead peoples' spirits.
Begging the question: Where were all the demons in the BCE?
They don't seem to make a showing until Jesus shows up.
That is an interesting coincidence?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DemonA demon (from Koine Greek δαιμόνιον daimónion) is a supernatural and often malevolent being prevalent in religion, occultism, literature, fiction, mythology and folklore.
The original Greek word daimon does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine δαιμόνιον (daimonion),[1] and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root.
. . .
The word shedim (Hebr. for "demons" or "spirits") appears only in two places in the Tanakh (Psalm 106:37, Deuteronomy 32:17). In both places, the term appears in a scriptural context of animal or child sacrifice to non-existent false gods that are called shedim
. . .
In the Jerusalem Talmud notions of shedim ("demons" or "evil spirits") are almost unknown or occur only very rarely, whereas in the Babylon Talmud there are many references to shedim and magical incantations. The existence of shedim in general was not questioned by most of the Babylonian Talmudists. As a consequence of the rise of influence of the Babylonian Talmud over that of the Jerusalem Talmud, late rabbis in general took as fact the existence of shedim, nor did most of the medieval thinkers question their reality.
. . .
To the Qumran community during the Second Temple period this apotropaic prayer was assigned, stating: "And, I the Sage, declare the grandeur of his radiance in order to frighten and terri[fy] all the spirits of the ravaging angels and the bastard spirits, demons, Liliths, owls" (Dead Sea Scrolls, "Songs of the Sage," Lines 4–5)
Even without the above quoted article it is clear that as well as in the case of "Hell" the term "Demon" must have been known when the gospels were written or else readers would not easily have understood.
The Demons seem to be borrowed from Paganism and Judaism both and then amalgated into Christianity and reinterpreted somehow.
As in : Demons have to be driven out. You need Jesus or some Christian exorcist to drive them out.
Perfect propaganda.
None-Christian gods and Miracles were also called devils and demons and made by devils and demons by the Christians.
Last edited by Regens Küchl on Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
