The Holy Spirit is?

[Checkpoint]

A person, an influence of some kind, an "active force", or?

If a person, which person? Is he someone we can know and talk to and hear from?

If not a person, then how, if at all, are we to relate to this non-person?

Please explain why you have the view you present, and reject other ideas.

[Checkpoint]

If God the Father is Spirit, as is suggested in the Gospel of John, and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, then that really seems like two Spirits. Why the distinction? (rhetorical question) Two Spirits would be Two Gods.

How 'bout this instead. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of YHVH, the "Spirit of your Father" as Jesus puts it.

Not a separate person, but rather God with us and in us. It is the Holy Spirit who is thus "Immanuel".

No need for God to divide Himself into two persons, He is, after all, God. If anyone can "bilocate" it's God. He can reign in Heaven, and be with us on Earth, at the same time. And His Presence on Earth is the Holy Spirit.

Also, isn't the Holy Spirit simply what Jews call "Ruach Hakodesh"? (sp?)

Yes, something like that, in a general sense.

But I think something changed, especially following Christ's ascension and his seating at the right hand of God.

On the Day of Pentecost things happened that had not before, and from then on the Holy Spirit began playing a very personal role.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

In the Jehovah's Witness faith the Holy spirit is believed to be God's active force (power in action) that He (God) uses to further his will and purpose. This is because Besides being translated ‘spirit,’ ruʹach [Hebrew] is also translated ‘wind’ and by other words that denote an invisible active force.� (Compare footnotes at Genesis 3:8; 8:1.)


JW

How can you relate to "an invisible active force" that, presumably, is what I have termed "a non-person"?

The relationship is with God, not with his spirit. God's spirit is merely the power he uses to get things done. It's part of God but it isn't God or another God. Think of it as the "hand of God". If you were in love with someone and they have two hands, would would it make sense to ask "how can you have a relationship with hands?" their hands are what the person uses to move things, lift you up if you fall, comfort and stroke you if you are hurt, fight for you if you need defending, make food for you if you are hungry... but the relationship is with the PERSON not with their hands.

God is invisible, we don't have to physically see him with our eyes to relate to him; we don't have to see his spirit to know what it is or feel its force in our lives.So, where in this does the Lord Jesus Christ fit in, as you see it?

JW

So, where does Jesus fit into this Holy Soirit scenario you have painted?

[tigger2]

The belief that the HS is a person was “revealed� (or came by interpretation) long after the inspired scriptures had been completed. Even many non-Witness scholars will admit that the inspired scriptures do not prove that the Holy Spirit is a person.

“In the New Testament .... The Holy Spirit is conceived as an impersonal power by which God effects his will through Christ.� - p. 34, An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm, ed.

“It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power.� - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers (trinitarian), 1984.

“The emergence of Trinitarian speculations in the early church theology led to great difficulties in the article about the Holy Spirit. For the being-as-person of the Holy Spirit, which is evident in the New Testament as divine power...could not be clearly grasped.... The Holy Spirit was viewed not as a personal figure but rather as a power� - The New Encyclopedia Britannica.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, where does Jesus fit into this Holy Soirit scenario you have painted?

The Holy spirit is God's force or active power, all holy supernatural power thus originates with God. Jesus when on earth applied the following words to himself :

“The Spirit of THE LORD JEHOVAH is upon me, and because of this he has anointed me to preach The Good News to the poor; he has sent me to heal broken hearts and to proclaim liberty to captives, vision to the blind, and to restore the crushed with forgiveness,� - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

JEHOVAH God has effectively given Jesus free access to His own limitless source of power and he (Jesus) can ask God to direct it as he sees fit (compare Mat 28:19). As well as this Jesus life and teachings provide a model for how to please God and his ransom the greatest expression of God's love, is the only way for sinful humans to enter into full relation with Him (God).

Hope that helps,

JW

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

Biblically, God is holy; God is spirit; God is one.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit is God; God is the Holy Spirit.

[For_The_Kingdom]

A person, an influence of some kind, an "active force", or?

If a person, which person? Is he someone we can know and talk to and hear from?

If not a person, then how, if at all, are we to relate to this non-person?

Please explain why you have the view you present, and reject other ideas.

As a Trinitarian, I believe the Holy Spirit is God (a person). However, I also admit that making a case for the Deity of the Holy Spirit is scriptually difficult, because there just isn't many scriptures pointing that direction. However, what do we have?

The best case, in my opinion, for the Deity of the Holy Spirit is the famous situation involving Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, when they kept part of the proceeds that they sold to themselves instead of giving it all to the Church.

Peter confronted Ananias by saying "Why has Satan filled your heart by lying to the Holy Spirit and keep part of the price of the land for yourself".

So the question is, if the Holy Spirit is just a mere "force" like Jehovah's Witnesses would like us to believe, then how can you lie to a force?

Then this "force" is identified as "God", when Peter states, "You have not lied to man but to God".

So, the Holy Spirit is a person, and this Holy Spirit is God, as the context indicates. That is the best we have. And then you have other scriptures where the Spirit speaks (Rev 22:17), and only a person can speak.

That is the Biblical case for the Holy Spirit being identified as the third person of the Holy Trinity.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by For_The_Kingdom]

QUESTION: Do Peter's words to Ananias not lead us to conclude the holy spirit is indeed a person?

ACTS 5: 3
Peter said: Ananias, why has Satan emboldened you to lie to the holy spirit and secretly hold back some of the price of the field?" NWT

Firstly it should be pointed out that even some trinitarians admit that making a case for the Deity of the Holy Spirit is scriptually difficult, presumably because of the numerous scriptures that indicate it is in fact NOT a person. Indeed the holy spirit is spoke of as "filling" people (up to 120 at the same time), being "poured" on or into people, people are spoken of as being "baptised into" the spirit ect. Rather than depicting the holy spirit as a individual with a personal name, holding literal conversations with people as do Jesus and Jehovah (YHWH), the New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God. - 1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575

Further any word study (as has already been presented in this thread - see above) show the word "spirit" in the original language (ruah) is translated in various ways, such as breath, wind, etc lending us to understand its nature. So a correct understanding of what the spirit is must by defiinition harmonize with ALL scriptural references to it.

So how are we to understand Peter's words?

Of course one can lie to a person but one can also lie to an authoritive body that represents a person or persons. Thus when a person is accused of "lying to a court" one is lying to a individual or individuals that are represent by the entity or organization called "the court"; there is no "person" called Mr or Mrs Court". Is it conceivable that Peter's meaning was that Ananias and his wife had lied to God as represented by those that acted in harmony with God's spirit.

Notice Peter's explanation of what had happened:

"And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of conspiring to test the Spirit of the Lord like this?" - NLT

So far from suggesting Ananais and Saphira had had or were having a conversation with a person called Mr Spirit to whom they lied, Peter was suggesting that their lies to him (Peter) was in some way testing God's spirit (a"test [of] the spirit of the lord"). If God's spirit is understood to be his own active power or force that can both kill and create, then lying to God (or anyone that represents him) would be like lying "to" the court, ie that expression of God's authority and power. If God's spirit, like his "hand" is the means by which he acts, then lying to God is lying to the spirit (ie acting in a way that defyings the active flow of his power).


CONCLUSION While there are a number of scriptures that seem to attribute human characteristics to the holy spirit, the bible on occassion does the same for to things such as fire, water and rocks... by far the majority of scriptures allow us to see these as literary devices. Lying to the spirit simply means to "lie" to its representatives or act in a way contrary to the manifestations of that spirit and in this way to God himself.







JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



RELATED POSTS

What is God's holy spirit?
viewtopic.php?p=413826#p413826

Do Peter's words to Ananias not lead us to conclude the holy spirit is indeed a person?
viewtopic.php?p=868863#p868863

Does Revelation 22 that refers to the spirit "speaking" necessarily prove it is a person?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 918#868918

[tigger2]

Acts 5:3, 4. Here we find a baptized Christian, one who has, therefore, received holy spirit, selling his property and giving some of the money from that sale to the Apostles. Now this man was under no obligation to sell his land or give any of that money to the Apostles. That he did so would have been a fine thing. But this man, Ananias, wanted honor more than he wanted to give charity. So he gave only part of the money from his property to the Apostles. This, too, would have been a fine thing. but he lied to the Apostles, because he wanted even more recognition, and told them he had given them all the money from the sale of his property!

So Peter said,

“Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to [or ‘cheat’ - Mo (or ‘to deceive’ or ‘to play false’ - Thayer, #5574; cf. #5574, Strong’s and Thayer, in Heb. 6:18 as rendered in RSV, NEB, CBW, and The Amplified Bible)] the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? .... How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to [‘played false to’ (‘defrauded’ - Mo)] men but to God.� - RSV.

The “evidence� here is supposed to be that Peter first says that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. Then he turns around and says that Ananias lied to God. The supposition being, evidently, that the one lie [or deception] could only be directed to one person. Therefore the Holy Spirit “must� be God!

This type of reasoning is painfully ridiculous at best! Ananias actually lied directly to the Apostles! So this type of “reasoning� applies even more strongly to the Apostles than it does to the Holy Spirit! By using this “evidence� we could say with equal credibility that Peter is saying the Apostles are God when he says “you have not lied to men but to God�!

We can see a similar idea at Mark 9:37 -

“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me [so trinitarian-type ‘evidence’ proves this child is Jesus!]; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.� - RSV.

So receiving the child is actually receiving the Son and the Father! The child, then, “must� be God Himself (by trinitarian standards of evidence)!

I’m sure the truth of this matter must be apparent to all objective persons. But, for good measure, you might examine such scriptures as Matt. 25:40 and Luke 10:16 and compare them with Acts 5:4. We can also see a similar usage in the rest of Acts 5:3, 4. In 5:3 we see that Satan filled Ananias’ heart to lie. But in 5:4 we find that Ananias himself conceived this thing in his heart. So this trinitarian-type evidence “reveals� another essential “mystery�: Satan is Ananias! Also analyze 1 Thess. 4:2, 6, 8; 1 Cor. 8:12; and James 4:11.

One of Christendom’s favorite trinitarians (and one of the humblest men found in history), St. Francis of Assisi, made an interesting statement that should be compared with Peter’s statement at Acts 5:3, 4. St. Francis said after receiving some clothing from a friend:

“Nothing could be better for me than these. I take them thankfully as your alms. You have given them to God.� - p. 66, Richest of the Poor - The Life of St. Francis of Assisi, Theodore Maynard, 1949.

Isn’t it obvious that, by willfully rebelling against the holy spirit (the motivating force sent by God) by lying to the Apostles, Ananias was also lying to God?

[tigger2]

FTK wrote (post 16):

That [Acts 5:3, 4] is the best [evidence for the HS being a person and God] we have. And then you have other scriptures where the Spirit speaks (Rev 22:17), and only a person can speak.

The Bible quotes personified things many times. For example, at Psalm 35:10 bones say, “O LORD, who is like thee...?� - RSV, NASB, NEB, Jerusalem Bible, and other modern translations which use quotation marks. (The KJV, for example, doesn’t use quotation marks anywhere.)

God says he can send out lightnings which can say to you, “Here we are.� - Job 38:35, RSV, NASB, JB, etc.

At Ezekiel 26:2, the city of Tyre speaks, “Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me; I shall....� - RSV, etc.

At Proverbs 8:1, 3-4, “Does not wisdom call,....She cries aloud: ‘To you, o men, I call,...’� - RSV, etc.

Even the trinitarian A Catholic Dictionary admits that the personification of the holy spirit in the New Testament certainly does not mean that it is a PERSON:

“Most of these places furnish no cogent proof of personality....We must not forget that the NT personifies mere attributes such as love (1 Cor. xiii. 4), and sin (Rom. vii. 11), nay even abstract and lifeless things, such as the law (Rom iii.19), the water and the blood (1 John v.8).�

And Young’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible tells us that

“Abstract and inanimate things are frequently personified� and then gives a long list of such things found in the Bible, including “a will [attributed to] the flesh and mind .... knowing, rejoicing [attributed] to the sun...� - “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation,� #2. (Also see Jn 3:8 where “the pneuma ['wind’ or ‘spirit’] blows where it wills.�)

Noted trinitarian scholar (and Anglican clergyman) E. W. Bullinger also makes it very clear in his Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, Baker Book House, 1992 printing, where I found the following examples:

Is. 24:4, 7 literally says that the earth and wine are mourning! (cf. NASB; RSV; KJV; JB; NJB; NAB, 1970 ed.; and MLB.) Is. 24:23 also literally says that the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed. (NIV, RSV, NASB, KJV, MLB.)

There are many more, of course. With a little effort you can find many others on your own - such as trees rejoicing at Is. 14:8 and “all of creation� [‘everything made’ - ETRV; ‘the created universe’ - NEB] waiting “with eager longing .... [and groaning] with pain� - Ro. 8:19, 22, GNB – and Is. 55:12 where “the mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.� – NASB.

There are many similar examples of “emotions� being ascribed to things that are intimately connected with a person (or a certain group of persons).

We read, for example, of a person’s heart being sad (or “grieved�) at 1 Samuel 1:8 and Proverbs 15:13. The heart is glad at Judges 18:20 and Acts 2:26 (the tongue rejoices also). The heavens are capable of rejoicing - Ps. 96:11. The mountains saw God and trembled [“were afraid�-ASV] and the deep [water] “uttered his voice and lifted up his hands� – Habakkuk 3:10, KJV. And Zion can be glad - Ps. 97:8 and can be comforted - Is. 51:3. “Zion spreads forth her hands, but there is no one to comfort her� - Lament. 1:17.

So, when Paul tells us at Acts 28:25 that the holy spirit “spoke� to people through Isaiah, it is certainly not proof that it is a person. We could point to the fact that the Bible “speaks� to us through our ministers if we wanted an easy parallel. That doesn’t make the Bible either a person or God!

Yes, scripture speaks to us: Romans 4:3 (cf. 9:17). It also can foresee and preach (Gal. 3:8, ASV). In fact, the word of God (scripture) is “living� and “quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart� – Hebrews 4:12, ASV.

Since Jehovah’s (the Father’s) holy spirit is actually his active force, it can do anything God wants done. It was the force used during creation. It is the force God uses to motivate. It is the force God uses to be all-seeing and all-knowing. God in heaven knows what everyone and everything in his creation are doing through his holy spirit. What we say is relayed to him through this creative/motivating/communicating force. In turn, if God wishes to communicate with us, he may “speak� to us through this invisible force.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Firstly it should be pointed out that even some trinitarians admit that making a case for the Deity of the Holy Spirit is scriptually difficult, presumably because of the numerous scriptures that indicate it is in fact NOT a person.

Not at all. We all know that JW's believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal "active" force. However, as I alluded to, we have scriptures which imply the personhood of the Holy Spirit. Now, if you can give scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit is a force, that doesn't discount the scripture(s) which state otherwise.

Therefore, we can reason that the Holy Spirit is not only a force, but a PERSONAL force, if we are to harmonize the scriptures.

Indeed the holy spirit is spoke of as "filling" people (up to 120 at the same time), being "poured" on or into people, people are spoken of as being "baptised into" the spirit ect.

And? I don't see how this contradicts the view of a personal active force.

Rather than depicting the holy spirit as a individual with a personal name, holding literal conversations with people as do Jesus and Jehovah (YHWH),

Yet I gave a scripture where the Spirit speaks...

Further any word study (as has already been presented in this thread - see above) show the word "spirit" in the original language (ruah) is translated in various ways, such as breath, wind, etc lending us to understand its nature. So a correct understanding of what the spirit is must by defiinition harmonize with ALL scriptural references to it.

Sure, but I am talking about the interpretation of the "spirit" in the two verses that I gave. You can't lie to breath or wind or any other inanimate force. But you can lie to a person, which is what Peter accused Ananias of doing, lying to the "Spirit", and ultimately, lying to God.

So how are we to understand Peter's words?

Of course one can lie to a person but one can also lie to an authoritive body that represents a person or persons. Thus when a person is accused of "lying to a court" one is lying to a individual or individuals that are represent by the entity or organization called "the court"; there is no "person" called Mr or Mrs Court".

Right, lying to an individual or individuals, not to an abstract, impersonal object or entity.

Is it conceivable that Peter's meaning was that Ananias and his wife had lied to God as represented by those that acted in harmony with God's spirit.

That may be possible if we didn't have the other scripture stating that the Holy Spirit spoke. It is the totality of both which allows one to interpret it that way.

Notice Peter's explanation of what had happened:

"And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of conspiring to test the Spirit of the Lord like this?" - NLT

So far from suggesting Ananais and Saphira had had or were having a conversation with a person called Mr Spirit to whom they lied, Peter was suggesting that their lies to him (Peter) was in some way testing God's spirit (a"test [of] the spirit of the lord"). If God's spirit is understood to be his own active power or force that can both kill and create, then lying to God (or anyone that represents him) would be like lying "to" the court, ie that expression of God's authority and power. If God's spirit, like his "hand" is the means by which he acts, then lying to God is lying to the spirit (ie acting in a way that defyings the active flow of his power).

Or it could mean that they lied to the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity. Because as I stated above, the Holy Spirit spoke, so therefore, even if you interpret the Acts verse as you do (the Holy Spirit is impersonal), then that still doesn't explain why the Holy Spirit is speaking in the Revelations scripture.

It would only make sense if the Holy Spirit is an actual person, as my interpretation is in line with.

CONCLUSION While there are a number of scriptures that seem to attribute human characteristics to the holy spirit, the bible on occassion does the same for to things such as fire, water and rocks...

Which should be examined on a case by case basis.