If God exists then Infinity does not exist

[jgh7]

Does this make sense?

1) Infinity is that which has no end.
2) It is impossible to reach the end of something with no end.
3) God can do everything that is possible to do in existence.
4) If God can't do something, then that something does not actually exist, for if it did exist then God could do it.
5) God can not reach the end of infinity for infinity has no end.
6 conclusion) An actual infinity does not exist if God exists.

Consequence: Everything in existence must have a beginning (infinitely back in time does not exist) and end (infinitely forwad in time does not exist) if God exists. Since God would also be part of existence, He must have a beginning and an end as well.

[paarsurrey1]

Does this make sense?

1) Infinity is that which has no end.
2) It is impossible to reach the end of something with no end.
3) God can do everything that is possible to do in existence.
4) If God can't do something, then that something does not actually exist, for if it did exist then God could do it.
5) God can not reach the end of infinity for infinity has no end.
6 conclusion) An actual infinity does not exist if God exists.

Consequence: Everything in existence must have a beginning (infinitely back in time does not exist) and end (infinitely forwad in time does not exist) if God exists. Since God would also be part of existence, He must have a beginning and an end as well.

What if One-True-God is himself Infinity ? All of His attributes are in Absolutes so the concept of infinity in Mathematics is just a reflection of it, to know a glimpse of these Absolutes that exist as positive verities in the Universe . Right, please?
Regards

[Complexity]

Good discussion. I find topic of infinity fascinating. YouTube has some good videos on this such as The top math experts in this tiny field don't know if there are any real world infinities. Most doubt it. Of course, there are infinities in the abstract world of ideas. Everything exists in the realm of possibilities, mental models, and math models. The math world is imaginary, which sometimes matches the real world precisely; sometimes approximately; and sometimes not at all. It is a category error to equate infinity to God in any essential way. Even an Atheist might say that the none of the usual models of god are constrained by the model of infinity. In the abstract realm of ideas you can do all manner of grand things by rational rules, and not be real, not predict reality, and not constrain reality. Infinities are very handy in calculus, in the abstract realm of ideas. Infinity is cloaked behind the curtain of abstract math; I think never to come into the light of the real world. Top minds have wrestled with “infinity� for thousands of years. Math geniuses tell us that millions of infinities can be added together and the sum is no larger than the original infinity. But they discovered there are some infinities much larger than others. And they do come to the end of an infinity by mere axiom. Anything can be done in imaginary worlds of ideas. You can constrain and contain the infinite within a container (a set) of unknown size and features merely by saying it exists. Such a wild claim is no greater than saying there is a set of things that is endless and keeps growing forever. Where is the source of all those endless things? You might say they are just numbers, which have no weight or size. And the mathematic container that holds all those number has no volume. We do need to keep our imaginary worlds rational and clearly separate from the real world.
There are an infinite number of sets of infinities. There are numerous mind-bending paradoxes dealing with infinities, very similiar to the great paradoxes of Quantum Mechanics and Relativity (non-imaginary worlds). These all parallel and reflect the paradoxes of God. God is timeless. All of human thoughts are so time-dependent, and we are so confined in the flow of time, that we can only crudely dream of what it would be like to exist in every instant of time simultaneously. That concept is far higher than merely traveling through time, or time standing still in a black hole.
We often hear that God is infinite. That seems to be hyperbolic language to credit God with having all powers. Does God have powers over abstractions like infinities? Does it make sense to compare a real God to an abstract concept like infinity? Does God limit his powers and actions by giving angels and man free will? Does God limit himself by creating and maintaining a narrow, unchanging, orderly universe and being rational & just; rather than leaving His options open? If God made a rock so heavy he could not lift it, then He’d give up his Godhood. Maybe He could make a god-rock more powerful then Himself, but that would dethrone Him, at least in part. So God could not do that which is logically impossible. And He’d have no need or reason to do. Evil demons might provoke Him to do such things; but He would not submit the them. Maybe God can’t make an infinite set of real matter, energy, spirits, etc. And it doesn’t matter. Who cares? There is no need to do so.
When I was a preteen, I watched the movie, The Time Machine. It depressed me for a few days. I felt like an ant trapped between 2 pieces of glass, unable to escape my domain (the flow of time, planet earth, death, etc). If man has learned anything it should be humility. We know very little about the nature of infinities, and shouldn’t speculate beyond our ignorance. In the afterlife, we humans might understand infinities and quantum mechanics, but likely we’ll never understand all paradoxes. And we don’t need to. I don’t expect resolution of all mysteries. To want all answers is no less than wanting godhood; the original & most basic sin. We should work with what we have; be thankful for it; making sensible conclusions from sensible inputs and not over-speculate. I love to see the boundaries pushed in this forum, and see how far we can go, and develop our arguments for our beliefs, but one of the greatest lessons we can learn is when to shelf a mystery and not force answers irrationally. Let’s debate where to draw the line. I much rather talk to the Skeptic who has deep doubts than the blow-hard who fakes full knowledge and always has big opinions and the final word.

[paarsurrey1]

If God exists then Infinity does not exist

Does infinity exist even, please?

Regards

[Complexity]

I think infinity exists only within the virtual world of ideas; a handy mental concept. Infinity is real in the sense that there are an infinite number of location points in any real line. But they are too small to find and it is impossible to write down the location of most of the points from one end of the line. The point next to the half-way point is 1/2-1/infinity. That is impossible for even the fastest computer to write down. Of course, we can’t divide the diameter of an electron into a trillion points, except hypothetically in the world of ideas. Locations are nothing physical, but neither are they fictional. Numbers and words are not real things, but functional symbolic ideas. Numbers are a quick way to label quantities and match sets of things.
If there were any infinite number of matter in the universe we'd have a black hole filling the entire universe, then exploding out of it into non-space and non-time (whatever that is). If any force was infinite it would rip space-time apart. Physics can only guess at what weird havoc would happen if there were any kind of physical infinity.
It is fun to play with Zeno’s paradox. He challenges us to try to walk across the room. It is impossible, assuming you go half way with each step. It would take an infinite number of steps to make the 10 foot journey. Obviously, we can’t keep dividing things in half in the real world. That would require taking impossibly small steps. The last normal step you take crossing the room, goes across an infinite number of half-steps. Every tiny movement of your finger covers an infinite number of infinitely small points. So you finger is moving at infinite speed if you are counting speed in points crossed per second.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Does this make sense?

1) Infinity is that which has no end.

First, it would have been nice if you would have defined the two types of infinity...actual and potential. Because in your conclusion, you concluded that an actual infinity does not exist without defining what it is and the distinction between it and the other infinity; potential.

But to the point, potential infinity is infinity which has no end.

2) It is impossible to reach the end of something with no end.

Right.

3) God can do everything that is possible to do in existence.

Yup.

4) If God can't do something, then that something does not actually exist, for if it did exist then God could do it.

I would word it differently, but yup.

5) God can not reach the end of infinity for infinity has no end.

Yup.

6 conclusion) An actual infinity does not exist if God exists.

But what you've been describing was a potential infinity, not actual infinity. This is seems like an inadvertent equivocation.

Consequence: Everything in existence must have a beginning (infinitely back in time does not exist)

False.

and end (infinitely forwad in time does not exist) if God exists.

?

Since God would also be part of existence, He must have a beginning and an end as well.

So, if God must have had a beginning, would could possibly be the cause of God?

[OnceConvinced]

Consequence: Everything in existence must have a beginning (infinitely back in time does not exist) and end (infinitely forwad in time does not exist) if God exists. Since God would also be part of existence, He must have a beginning and an end as well.

I can accept that a god would have no end. That he would exist forever. That would be a pretty horrible curse I think, but I can accept that. The problem I have is when people try to claim that God always was. If he always was, then we have to go backward in time infinitely, which surely would be absurd. It would mean that God would never have ever got to the time where he created the earth.

There surely had to be some starting point for God where he came into existence and then decided that he was going to start doing some creating. To say he was always there is kind of a paradox, I guess. An impossibility. At the very least he must have been there in some ungodly form at some stage. Something non-supernatural and something non-intelligent.

[Complexity]

God is not bound to time. If He was, then time would be supreme, not Him. Besides what space-time are we all referring to? Even in the natural world, even on earth, there is no universal time scale. We now know that clocks run at different speeds depending on gravity and velocity. These are tiny differences on earth, but orbiting near a black hole time nearly stops. Inside the black hole, in theory, time stops, thus coming to an end of time for all matter within it; unless black holes decay. In heaven, we surely won’t be on sea level Earth time. Either there is a heavenly universal time scale (supernatural clock), we’ll exist in all moments of heavenly time (and maybe all of earthly time too) like God, or something more complex. I’m guessing something complex but good. So there is no use talking about infinite time past or future if our time scale had a beginning and will have an end, and we don't know if there is some soft of universal time dimension at play.God might restrict Himself to a time scale He created, as Jesus did when He came to earth (or maybe not).

There was no time, space, or causation before the Big Bang (rather it is real or just a theory) (not in the sense we know at least). Our time began at the Big Bang rather that was 20 Billion years ago or 10,000 years ago. Either way, God banged it into existence. You can’t have X causing effect Y without time in operation, in some orderly, one-way directional form. Before the Big Bang there was no time, in which anything could have happened; not as we know it at least, per current science understanding. It is impossible for us space-time bound creatures to get a mental handle on this. It is fun to speculate but we must not go beyond our means like Job and his friends did. God had no beginning, but he is pictured as the Alpha and Omega (beginning and end) for first century minds. For modern educated minds, an updated analogy might be more scientific appealing; but that would not be more poetically beautiful or true in spirit.

[William]

[Replying to post 16 by OnceConvinced]

I don't understand your reasoning here because you don't really explain why you come to that conclusion.

[OnceConvinced]

God is not bound to time.

Many people claim this, but what does that really mean? He still did things in a linear fashion.

The thing is, he even created the world in a linear fashion. It took place over a period of time. (7 days). He hadn't even created the sun and the moon until the third day. The fact that he created the sun and the moon on the third day should show that God existed in a linear time frame before the things that govern our time actually existed.

We now know that clocks run at different speeds depending on gravity and velocity.

But the fact remains is they run in a linear fashion.

These are tiny differences on earth, but orbiting near a black hole time nearly stops.

Have we had something orbit near a black hole to be able to witness this? If time slows down I don't see that as being something that would be advantageous for a god. It would mean nothing would get done. You would be gradually slowing down and slowing down until you were doing nothing. In fact if we are going to a place of timelessness, shouldn't it be the opposite? Time speeding up, thus God would have a huge advantage.

I'm reminded of the story of the Hitch Hiker's Guide the Galaxy. Well actually the 2nd in the series called "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe". The restaurant is called Milliways. It takes place at the end of the universe (where the universe is about to end). People travel in time to dine there and watch the universe end. So presumably time ends at the moment the universe ends. But yet these people get to enjoy dinner and watch it all happen, before climbing back into their spaceships and heading back home.

No matter which way you look at it, if you're watching something happen, time passes. How could it be anything different?

Inside the black hole, in theory,

In theory. There doesn't seem to be any real evidence though.

In heaven, we surely won’t be on sea level Earth time. Either there is a heavenly universal time scale (supernatural clock), we’ll exist in all moments of heavenly time (and maybe all of earthly time too) like God, or something more complex.

Presumably we will continue to do things in a linear fashion. The bible talks of streets of gold in Heaven, so if there are streets one is going to travel down them. They will travel down them in a linear fashion, otherwise there would not be any streets. In fact there would be no need for any streets, surely?

I’m guessing something complex but good. So there is no use talking about infinite time past or future if our time scale had a beginning and will have an end, and we don't know if there is some soft of universal time dimension at play.God might restrict Himself to a time scale He created, as Jesus did when He came to earth (or maybe not).

The bible talks of eternal life. Eternal life sounds like a very linear concept.

There was no time, space, or causation before the Big Bang (rather it is real or just a theory) (not in the sense we know at least). Our time began at the Big Bang rather that was 20 Billion years ago or 10,000 years ago.

As we can't possibly go back to that time we can't tell exactly what happened. For all we know time was linear back then too.

Either way, God banged it into existence.

On the third day so it appears. Funny it should happen on day 3. That would mean that time was linear before the big bang.

The thing is when you have an explosion it happens in a linear fashion and from there everything moves outwards in a linear fashion. One would expect that whatever caused the big bang also did it in a linear fashion, god or not god.

Seriously everything that the bible says that God did happened in a linear fashion. It even says that a 1000 years to us is like a day to God, but even that's expressing something in a time frame. Something linear. It definitely isn't a description of timelessness.

You can’t have X causing effect Y without time in operation, in some orderly, one-way directional form.

Exactly. Same should go also for the Big Bang. Why should there be special pleading involved here?

You also can't have a god planning something without it happening in an orderly, one way directional form.

Before the Big Bang there was no time,

You claim this but have zero evidence to back that up. That is a presumption on your part.

in which anything could have happened; not as we know it at least, per current science understanding. It is impossible for us space-time bound creatures to get a mental handle on this.

That's kind of like saying "our puny minds can't begin to understand God." Kind of a cop out I feel.

It is fun to speculate but we must not go beyond our means like Job and his friends did.

Yes, we can speculate, but the fact remains that the bible describes a very linear god who did things in a linear fashion.

God had no beginning,

Once again a presumption. And if God had no beginning why not some other unintelligent lifegiving entities or forces too? They could have had no beginning. But the fact remains that when things happen they happen in a linear fashion, so why not presume it was always the case?

For all we know, if there was a god he evolved over a period of time to get to a point where he was able to start creating things. Maybe from God's perspective he realises he came from something non-supernatural, something that as far as we is aware was always there, which is why he claims to have always been there.

but he is pictured as the Alpha and Omega (beginning and end)

A very linear description, don't you think?

For modern educated minds, an updated analogy might be more scientific appealing; but that would not be more poetically beautiful or true in spirit.

So God was wrong about how he described himself in the bible? God was not really the Beginning and the End? You don't think he could have described it a little better if it's not what he meant?

I could imagine that instead of saying "a thousand years to us is like a day to God", if he was a god who existed in a non-linear environment he could have easily said something like "a thousand years us is an instant to God" or how about simply "God exists where there is no time".? I'm sure even primitive minds could have grasped something along those lines, but to say "a thousand years to us is a day to God" is very much misrepresenting timelessness... unless of course God didn't exist in a dimension of timelessness and really did have a linear existence.

Whatever you believe, God, if he exists, must have had a starting point where he decided to start creating things. Did he just materialise one day as a deity and say to himself "Hey! I'm God! Ok, I better start doing some creating".

I see no reason to invoke special pleading when it comes to gods. That is considered a logical fallacy. If he was always there, then why not non-supernatural life giving elements?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 16 by OnceConvinced]

I don't understand your reasoning here because you don't really explain why you come to that conclusion.

Hopefully my second post I made might clear some of that up.