Is there sense in tracing Jesus back to Adam?

[marco]

We are sometimes urged to regard the gospels as a kind of history. Let us then take Luke, chapter 3, and move through verses 23 to 38, the genealogy of Jesus right back to Adam, the very first human on planet Earth.

If we regard this sequence as silly, should we then discard everything Luke says?

OR

Given that it is sensible to regard Eden as metaphorical, since nobody witnessed Adam's birth, what does it mean if Jesus is traced back to a myth?

OR

Is it possible to find ANY sense in what Luke says here?

[marco]

Just saying the fall of Man is the standard Christian explanation for the presence of evil in the world. Since the world and nature is not evil. Evil must only exists in the mind of Man.

Yes, man sees a tsunami killing hundreds as bad when of course it isn't. Before Adam tripped, he would not have seen natural disasters as bad at all.

Or is it possible that before the Fall there were no tsunamis, no earthquakes, no lightning bolts....? My goodness, how did Adam conjure these things up?

Can you honestly deny Man does evil things? Therefore Man must have "fallen" (for want of a better word) from his original position in nature.

But man does good things too, so he must have risen as well then. For what it's worth, adam in Turkish means man.

[marco]

I am discussing this with an absolutist ....

Fair enough. I simply pointed out a place in medicine where probability theory actually saves lives. Psychology and sociology do not enjoy my unqualified admiration.

When looking at ancient literature, an evaluation of the literal verbiage of an English translation based on strict scientific analysis is clearly not appropriate.

If it's just ancient literature, there is much to be admired, and science shouldn't interfere. If it is the application of ancient rules and theories to modern life, we should be circumspect.

[bluethread]

If it's just ancient literature, there is much to be admired, and science shouldn't interfere. If it is the application of ancient rules and theories to modern life, we should be circumspect.

If by that you mean that we should include modern factors when evaluating the application of principles presented in ancient literature once we have properly determined what those principles really are, I agree. That is my point, mythology has value in that it provides a way for societies to advance those principles going forward, without having to constantly reinvent the wheel.

That said, the characterizing of mythology as ancient stories of fantastic acts and characters is to misunderstand the purpose of mythology. I personally do not think that the original hearers of mythic tails saw them as absolutely literal. Some mythology is recorded in hyperbolic terms, because, as science has established, that helps with memorization. In fact, I used hyperbole to great effect in preparing for the CPA exam. That is not to say that there are not some actual outlandish things in accounting, especially when it comes to accounting for taxes.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to dio9]


“Just saying the fall of Man is the standard Christian explanation for the presence of evil in the world. Since the world and nature is not evil. Evil must only exists in the mind of Man. As such we can say Man is fallen, due to his state of mind which is not in harmony with and may even be adversarial toward nature. In other words fallen Man left his proper position in Nature. The fall of Man is based on the generally accepted principle that God is good, or simply that the world and nature is good. We should expect Man to be good too. Evil is not natural. Can you honestly deny Man does evil things? Therefore Man must have "fallen" (for want of a better word) from his original position in nature.�

Nonsense.

God created a universe where entropy is a driving factor. Some systems like stars decrease their entropy while increasing it in their surrounding. Some systems like black holes decrease the entropy of their surrounding while increasing their entropy. But this is a losing battle because even black holes ultimately will evaporate cause of Hawking radiation and thus the overall entropy will increase. Living organism cause harm to other living organisms(increase entropy in their surrounding) in a fight for resources, in a fight to decrease the entropy in their system(body). But this is a losing battle because radiation, physical trauma, chemical degradation, all of these things are continuously increasing entropy in their 'local system' (body) till it becomes enough to cause a cessation of life(the system breaks down to the point that it can no longer function as a cohesive sum). Groups, tribes cause harm to other groups, tribes(increase entropy in their surrounding) in a fight for resources, in a fight to decrease the entropy in their system(group, pack, tribe).

“Social entropy is a macrosociological systems theory. It is a measure of the natural decay within a social system. It can refer to the decomposition of social structure or of the disappearance of social distinctions. Much of the energy consumed by a social organization is spent to maintain its structure, counteracting social entropy, e.g., through legal institutions, education and even the promotion of television viewing. Anomie is the maximum state of social entropy.[disputed – discuss] Social entropy implies the tendency of social networks and society in general to break down over time, moving from cooperation and advancement towards conflict and chaos. (civilizations inevitable break down)�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entropy

Unlike energy, entropy is not a zero sum sort of commodity. Entropy always increases.

“The heat death of the universe is the ultimate fate of the universe in which the universe has diminished to a state of no thermodynamic free energy and therefore can no longer sustain processes that increase entropy. Heat death does not imply any particular absolute temperature; it only requires that temperature differences or other processes may no longer be exploited to perform work. In the language of physics, this is when the universe reaches thermodynamic equilibrium (maximum entropy).�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_deat ... e_universe

Keeping entropy in cheek can be temporarily winnable fight, but inevitable the constant grow of entropy in the universe will lead to the "heat death" of the universe. Everything will have the same temperature, the same composition and the same distribution. It will be a lifeless, near-empty, cold and boring expanse.

Entropy is the root cause of all evil.

C: Therefore God is ultimately responsible for the evil in the universe.

Also let’s look at the definition of evil:

evil
[ee-vuh l]
Spell Syllables
• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked:
evil deeds; an evil life.
2.
harmful; injurious:
evil laws.
3.
characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering;unfortunate; disastrous:
to be fallen on evil days.
4.
due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character:
an evil reputation.
5.
marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.:
He is known for his evil disposition.
noun
6.
that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct:
to choose the lesser of two evils.
7.
the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8.
the wicked or immoral part of someone or something:
The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9.
harm; mischief; misfortune:
to wish one evil.
10.
anything causing injury or harm:
Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.
11.
a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence:
the evils of alcohol.
12.
a disease, as king's evil.
adverb
13.
in an evil manner; badly; ill:
It went evil with him.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/evil

According to philosophy and definitions there are two types of evil: moral evil done by moral agents and non-moral evils/natural evils like natural disasters, diseases.



“PS The Hebrew word Adam in English means; humans , male and female.�

So I see you went for the super metaphorical interpretation.
You are trying to escape the inevitable. I am afraid is impossible.

Q: So if “Adam� stands for humans: males and females what does the metaphor “Eve� stands for?

[marco]

“Social entropy is a macrosociological systems theory..... e.g., through legal institutions, education and even the promotion of television viewing. Anomie is the maximum state of social entropy"

It is fine to use entropy as an illustration against the idea of blaming Adam's fall for evil in the world but to introduce "entropy in macrosociological systems" is to be as imaginative as those who accept Adam.

So if “Adam� stands for humans: males and females what does the metaphor “Eve� stands for?

A good point. I suspect that Adam's inventors saw the necessity for there to be a starting pair. Had they known differential equations they could have used this initial condition to estimate the population in their own era.

[alexxcJRO]

“Social entropy is a macrosociological systems theory..... e.g., through legal institutions, education and even the promotion of television viewing. Anomie is the maximum state of social entropy"

It is fine to use entropy as an illustration against the idea of blaming Adam's fall for evil in the world but to introduce "entropy in macrosociological systems" is to be as imaginative as those who accept Adam.

Q: Can you explain why?

[marco]

]


It is fine to use entropy as an illustration against the idea of blaming Adam's fall for evil in the world but to introduce "entropy in macrosociological systems" is to be as imaginative as those who accept Adam.

Q: Can you explain why?

Yes. It seems (to me) inappropriate to replace one questionable theory (Adam's fall resulted in evils) with another equally questionable. Introducing into sociology concepts from physics that are obtained from experiment and exact calculation is imaginative, certainly, but of dubious value.

[bluethread]

So if “Adam� stands for humans: males and females what does the metaphor “Eve� stands for?

A good point. I suspect that Adam's inventors saw the necessity for there to be a starting pair. Had they known differential equations they could have used this initial condition to estimate the population in their own era.

It establishes the principle that male and female are significant designations and that the collaborative Male/Female relationship is central to a stable society.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 53 by bluethread]

that entropy is evil is completely opposite my belief and Herman Melville's too. If you have read Moby Dick you would know the white whale was not evil Ahab's desire for revenge was evil. Like entropy Moby Dick was a force of nature and I continue to affirm nature is not evil.
But I digress , back to the relationship of Adam and Jesus ; when Adam became conscious of his humanity along with it came thinking he was separate from nature. This is false of course , he was in error , and we say to error is human. Adam was left missing the mark.
So all too briefly, in conclusion , Jesus connection to this is he came to restore Adam's place in nature to end the wrong thinking , he did it from the context of Mosaic Judaism to end the sense of sin his people were suffering under.
Where Adam's thinking left him an exile , Jesus teaching awakens Man to the fact that God is interwoven through out all things and Adam too .

[bluethread]

Adam became conscious of his humanity along with it came thinking he was separate from nature.

Where do you get this. I don't see where it says that in the Scriptures and I am unaware of where that can be found in rabbinic tradition.