This Just in: Palestinian News

[liamconnor]

Too often arguments on the side of atheists here are based on a deficiency of historical imagination: that is, the ability to visualize concrete and historically educated situations.

Here is a complaint from a member

I got news for you - Jesus wasn't significant. A dude is walking around the Middle East that can change water into wine, and raise people from the dead, and walk on water, and not ONE mention of this is made outside of Paul/Saul's writings

The member here thinks it conspicuous that Jesus is not mentioned in any of the daily news from that period in Palestine. I mean, come on, except for the gospels, no Headlines?!

But what are the headlines? What written sources do we have from Palestine during that period?

We have the N.T. and Josephus. That is it. Atheists think there are volumes of daily news on Palestine and that the absence of Jesus is conspicuous. There aren't. There are some volumes from Josephus and a number of letters and biographies, and both of them overlap in certain references, including references to Jesus’ brother, as well as Jesus himself.

“Well" protests our atheist, "at least Roman headlines should read about it!�

Ah yes. No doubt as soon as Jesus healed some people in a backwater village, everyone ran back to their homes and picked up the telephone and called the local news station and

….oh wait.

"Well," he continues, "at the very least they all wrote letters to their state representatives and…."

oh wait.

"Well," another attempt, "at the very least people talked about Jesus to other people who talked to others who talked to still others, and naturally this talk got to Roman officials who were very concerned about the daily life of Jewish peasants, and so naturally when the overheard about some Jewish guy healing some people in some obscure country they thought, “This is most pressing. Tiberius will no doubt want to drop everything he is dealing with right now and investigate this.�

….oh wait.

Are there any other "Well, (another attempt)"?

[liamconnor]

At any rate,

has any light been shed on the historical situation? Whether or not I have accurately represented a member's criticism, still, the criticism is prevalent among athiests: Jesus and the resurrection do not make a splash in ancient literature.

Now, if we had a library of documents from the place and time period, this would be a very, very good attack.

But do we? What do we have on Palestinian events between 1 AD and 70 AD?

We have Josephus and the N.T.

Both mention Jesus.

I simply think it is time to abandon one common argument among atheists. I am not here arguing for anything more. Simply never again bring up the complaint that Jesus is not mentioned in a plethora of sources; because we simply do not have a plethora of sources from that time and place. In short, the arguments basically asserts, "It is highly suspicious that Jesus and his alleged resurrection does not show up in thousands of non-existent sources."

Let's all just move on to other, better arguments.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 31 by liamconnor]

I am not here arguing for anything more. Simply never again bring up the complaint that Jesus is not mentioned in a plethora of sources;

How about no? Whatever the reason, he doesn't show up in literature of the day. Given the nature of the claim, a supposedly all knowing God who causes the body to resurrect, it would stand to reason that if this God really does want humans to believe this event happened...he would have given us better evidence than what we do have.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 31 by liamconnor]

We have Josephus and the N.T.

Both mention Jesus.

That both have controversy in their origins basically discounts both.
Josephus and others, look like insertions or have words altered (Christós for chrysós for example), so, no, it all works look suspicious, then the argument is still valid.

[McCulloch]

Now, if we had a library of documents from the place and time period, this would be a very, very good attack.

But do we? What do we have on Palestinian events between 1 AD and 70 AD?

You'd have managed better
If you'd had it planned
Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?
If you'd come today
You could have reached a whole nation
Israel in 4 BC
Had no mass communication

What about the writer Philo, a first-century Alexandrian Jewish philosopher? Most of his works have been preserved in Greek by the Church Fathers; some survive only through an Armenian translation. He does not mention Jesus.

Marcus Velleius Paterculus (c. 19 BC – c. AD 31), was a Roman historian. He does not mention Jesus.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Oh God , no twitter either.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 2 by rikuoamero]

how about he didn't want Jesus to be killed so he sent him to the best empire of the day.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Too often arguments on the side of atheists here are based on a deficiency of historical imagination: that is, the ability to visualize concrete and historically educated situations.

Here is a complaint from a member

I got news for you - Jesus wasn't significant. A dude is walking around the Middle East that can change water into wine, and raise people from the dead, and walk on water, and not ONE mention of this is made outside of Paul/Saul's writings

The member here thinks it conspicuous that Jesus is not mentioned in any of the daily news from that period in Palestine. I mean, come on, except for the gospels, no Headlines?!

But what are the headlines? What written sources do we have from Palestine during that period?

We have the N.T. and Josephus. That is it. Atheists think there are volumes of daily news on Palestine and that the absence of Jesus is conspicuous. There aren't. There are some volumes from Josephus and a number of letters and biographies, and both of them overlap in certain references, including references to Jesus’ brother, as well as Jesus himself.

“Well" protests our atheist, "at least Roman headlines should read about it!�

Ah yes. No doubt as soon as Jesus healed some people in a backwater village, everyone ran back to their homes and picked up the telephone and called the local news station and

….oh wait.

"Well," he continues, "at the very least they all wrote letters to their state representatives and…."

oh wait.

"Well," another attempt, "at the very least people talked about Jesus to other people who talked to others who talked to still others, and naturally this talk got to Roman officials who were very concerned about the daily life of Jewish peasants, and so naturally when the overheard about some Jewish guy healing some people in some obscure country they thought, “This is most pressing. Tiberius will no doubt want to drop everything he is dealing with right now and investigate this.�

….oh wait.

Are there any other "Well, (another attempt)"?

But what are the headlines? What written sources do we have from Palestine during that period?

We have the N.T. and Josephus. That is it. Atheists think there are volumes of daily news on Palestine and that the absence of Jesus is conspicuous.

Acta Diurna (latin: Daily Acts sometimes translated as Daily Public Records) were daily Roman official notices, a sort of daily gazette. They were carved on stone or metal and presented in message boards in public places like the Forum of Rome. They were also called simply Acta.

History
The first form of Acta appeared around 131 BC during the Roman Republic. Their original content included results of legal proceedings and outcomes of trials. Later the content was expanded to public notices and announcements and other noteworthy information such as prominent births, marriages and deaths. After a couple of days the notices were taken down and archived (though no intact copy has survived to the present day). Sometimes scribes made copies of the Acta and sent them to governors for information. Later emperors used them to announce royal or senatorial decrees and events of the court. Other forms of Acta were legal, municipal and military notices. The Acta, originally kept secret, until then-consul Julius Caesar made them public in 59 BC. Later rulers, however, often censored them. Publication of the Acta Diurna stopped when the seat of the emperor was moved to Constantinople.

The Acta Diurna to some extent filled the place of the modern newspaper and of the government gazette. Today, there are many academic periodicals with the word acta in their titles (the publisher Elsevier has 64 such titles). Acta Diurna introduced the expression “publicare et propagare�, which means "make public and propagate." This expression was set in the end of the texts and proclaimed a release to both Roman citizens and non-citizens. "Acta Diurna" was also used as the title of a Latin newspaper, published by Centaur Books.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acta_Diurna

Encyclopedia Britannica
Acta
ANCIENT ROMAN PUBLICATION
WRITTEN BY: The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica
See Article History
Alternative Titles: “Acta Diurna�, “Acta populi�, “Acta Senatus�

SIMILAR TOPICS
The Police Gazette

Acta, ( Latin: “things that have been done�) in ancient Rome, minutes of official business (Acta senatus) and a gazette of political and social events (Acta diurna).

The Acta senatus, or Commentarii senatus, were the minutes of the proceedings of the Senate, and, according to Suetonius, they were first published in 59 bce. They were available to senators, but the emperor Augustus did not allow access to the wider public. From the reign of his successor, Tiberius, in the 1st century ce, a young senator drew up the Acta senatus, which were kept in the imperial archives and public libraries. They could be examined only with special permission.

The Acta diurna (also called Acta populi, or Acta publica), said to date from before 59 bce, recorded official business and matters of public interest. Under the empire (after 27 bce), the Acta diurna constituted a type of daily gazette, and thus it was, in a sense, the prototype of the modern newspaper.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Acta

Cursus publicus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The cursus publicus (Latin: "the public way"; Ancient Greek: d?µ?s??? d??µ??, demósios drómos) was the state-run courier and transportation service of the Roman Empire, later inherited by the Byzantine Empire. The Emperor Augustus created it to transport messages, officials, and tax revenues between the provinces and Italy. The service was still fully functioning in the first half of the sixth century in the Byzantine Empire, when the historian Procopius accuses Emperor Justinian of dismantling most of its sections, except for the route leading to the Persian border. The extent of the cursus publicus is shown in the Tabula Peutingeriana, a map of the Roman road network dating from around AD 400
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursus_publicus

Actual historians are actually aware that Rome had a newspaper. Rome had an efficiently run postal service too. Just ask Paul, the great letter writer. And yet somehow no mention of the various and "many" resurrections from the dead managed to slip out of Jerusalem at the time people later on would proclaim that they had occurred.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by rikuoamero]

how about he didn't want Jesus to be killed so he sent him to the best empire of the day.

drums fingers on desk

I'd like you to take the time and effort to spot the MANY glaring holes and problems in what you suggested.
This is something I see a lot on this site, especially from theists. Declarations or suggestions that God is X Y Z, or did A B C, all without thinking of the problems this raises.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 37 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Actual historians are actually aware that Rome had a newspaper. Rome had an efficiently run postal service too.

Look up the first PUBLIC mailing system. Rome's system was for government and military.

Good grief, just shut your eyes and attempt to exercise the historical imagination: Do you really think that Paul wrote a letter "To the Corinthians" and dropped it in the mailbox with a stamp?


At any rate, your surfing through wikepedia is irrelevant. I advise you reread the OP where I exposed the absurdity of supposing that Rome was updated about every event on every street of the entire empire. This was not the 21st century.

So, what information do we have about the relevant period in Palestine? the N.T. and Josephus.

Consider that the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a pretty major event: what are our sources for this event? Josephus.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 37 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Actual historians are actually aware that Rome had a newspaper. Rome had an efficiently run postal service too.

Look up the first PUBLIC mailing system. Rome's system was for government and military.

Good grief, just shut your eyes and attempt to exercise the historical imagination: Do you really think that Paul wrote a letter "To the Corinthians" and dropped it in the mailbox with a stamp?


At any rate, your surfing through wikepedia is irrelevant. I advise you reread the OP where I exposed the absurdity of supposing that Rome was updated about every event on every street of the entire empire. This was not the 21st century.

So, what information do we have about the relevant period in Palestine? the N.T. and Josephus.

Consider that the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a pretty major event: what are our sources for this event? Josephus.

Look up the first PUBLIC mailing system. Rome's system was for government and military.

Good grief, just shut your eyes and attempt to exercise the historical imagination: Do you really think that Paul wrote a letter "To the Corinthians" and dropped it in the mailbox with a stamp?

It was called the Cursus Publicus (The Public Way) for a reason. Although originally set up for military use, it also transported private post for those who could pay for the privileged, as a way to help defray the costs. 1 Corinthians for example was written in Ephesus, only about 160 miles from Corinth.

Wikipedia
Financial costs and the fate of the service
Costs for the cursus publicus were always high, and its maintenance could not always be guaranteed. Around the time of Nerva, in the late first century, the general cost was transferred to the Fiscus (treasury). Further centralization came during the reign of Hadrian, who created an actual administration under a prefect, who bore the title praefectus vehiculorum. Provinces were always in touch with Rome and one another. The Imperial Post gave the legions the capacity to summon reinforcements and provide status reports before any situation deteriorated too badly. The average citizen sent letters and messages to friends across the sea with slaves and travelling associates. Most news reached its destination eventually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursus_publicus

The original point was that Jerusalem was not situated in a cone of silence. Information got out. News traveled. Just nothing whatsoever concerning the unbelievable events that would later be detailed in the NT.