The original "gospel" message

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liamconnor
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The original "gospel" message

Post #1

Post by liamconnor »

This OP is not about whether Jesus was raised but about what the earliest Christians believed about that event. Those who have difficulty with such nuanced distinctions may be aided by this caveat: in no way are we to argue that a resurrection took place; for the purpose of this thread we may posit it didn’t. This OP is especially to engage Yahwat and others who believe that Paul preached a ‘spiritual’ resurrection. For those whose only concern is attacking Christianity—i.e., who do not care about tangential historical questions—this thread is not for you and I politely ask that you do not derail it: far too much of that is going on as is.

I will put forward the argument that the best explanation for all the data is that the earliest Christians from Peter to Paul to the authors of the gospels all believed and preached that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead, leaving behind an empty tomb. It should be noted that “resurrection� does not equate to “a raising�. Jesus was said to be resurrected; Jairus’ daughter, Lazarus; they were “raised�.

First the data to be explained:

The gospels were written last and therefore reveal the latest form of Christian beliefs. By that time bodily resurrection, the kind that would leave behind an empty tomb, was a fixed clause in Christian teaching.

This requires explanation: if we begin with the belief in a bodily resurrection, we have no difficulty; getting from a to a is easy. It is when we propose that the original belief entailed a spiritual, non-bodily resurrection that we come up against a problem: getting from a to z. Thus the onus lies on those who need to trace an evolutionary process; how a spiritual resurrection becomes a bodily one, with the addition of an empty tomb, women as the first witnesses, and tactile encounters. I should point out one very large obstacle in this: bodily resurrection was a very Jewish belief. The kind of spiritual resurrection proposed on this forum would have sat well with Gentile conceptions. But when the gospels were written, the communities in which they were produced were largely Gentile. That is, we must explain how what started as a Gentile conception became more Jewish in theology as the church became more gentile in demography.

Next we have Acts. Much is made of the three descriptions of Paul’s Damascus experience. Typically the arguments in favor of a spiritual conception ignore everything that hurts it and focuses on everything that helps it. Thus it is completely ignored that the author of Luke/Acts believed Jesus was bodily raised from the dead when he wrote the three Damascus events; this means, in his conception, the Damascus accounts are compatible with a bodily risen Jesus. Since we are in search of what the earliest Christians believed, apparently Christians of 60/70 AD do make as much as we do of the dichotomy between “visions from heaven� and “bodily resurrections�. The Jesus that reveals himself to Paul is the "Incarnate Lord". We should also note that in Acts the term "resurrection" is foreign to the philosophers of Athens; but the kind of spiritual resurrection proposed by Yahwhat and others would have been quite familiar. That Acts is written later than Paul is irrelevant to the linguistic aspect here.

Next we go back to Paul. I will anticipate some of the more questionable linguistic arguments that have been made thus far. Some have pointed to Galatians 1:16 as stating that Paul’s conversion was based on an “inner revelation�, the connotations I suspect mean something warm and fuzzy. A kind of “ah ha� moment. That is placing far too much wait on one tiny preposition: �ν. What is most certain is that this preposition is not translated "inner" so as to exclude a corporeal revelation. That is a kind of sleight of hand move on the part of those pushing for a spiritual resurrection. The spiritualists need way more than this tiny preposition.

Others like to dwell on the term “revelation�, as though the Greek connotes something incorporeal. It doesn’t. ἀποκαλύπτω means to “reveal� or “disclose� something. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the physical constitution of the person disclosing it; that the agent of such revelations are often God or angels is irrelevant to the linguistic argument, since "reveal" does not have embedded in it the phrase "by something incorporeal and dreamlike".

Still others like to point to 2 Cor 12 as providing evidence that Paul believed his encounter with Jesus was with an incorporeal, spiritual Jesus—similar to someone today saying, “I feel like grandma is speaking to me� (despite the fact that grandma is known to be buried six feet below in the local cemetery). This errors in two ways: first, 2 Cor. 12 does not refer to Paul’s initial encounter with Jesus. In that text Paul explicitly says that he saw things of which he cannot speak: but the original encounter with Jesus was explicit in its commission to preach the gospel, cf. Galatians. Second, the experiences recounted in 2 Cor. explicitly deny a necessarily incorporeal experience: Paul says he doesn’t know if he was in the body or out. For all he knows, his body may have been assumed into the heavenly sphere. Again, we cannot force upon 1st c. Jewish concepts our own modern ones.

And we may also point out that 2 Cor. as a whole preaches a physical resurrection.

Here is a look at 2 Cor. 4 14
14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. (2Co 4:14 NAS).
We see here that Paul links Jesus’ resurrection with the future resurrection which believers will undergo. Now, if Jesus’ resurrection were conceived as “spiritual�, that is, non-bodily, we should expect our own to be ‘spiritual’, that is, non-bodily. Is that what we find? No. We read on: 2 Cor. 5:1
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven;
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked.
We see here that a disembodied soul is not the end which Paul has in mind; rather, Paul wishes that his present body (=tent) would be clothed with the heavenly body. Indeed, the verb for “clothed� is very strange: Paul adds a prefix so that what we have is �πενδύω; that is, to put on “over� something else.

This is thoroughly Jewish. The literature from the Pseudepigrapha and Rabbinic tradition talk of the dead receiving back their former bodies, which are themselves altered: a kind of two stage resurrection. (We can corroborate this with Paul’s description of those who survive to see the Parousia in 1 Cor. 15: they do not shed their bodies; rather, their bodies are transformed.)

We read on in 2 Cor. 5
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (2Co 5:1-4 NAS)
What is “mortal� = their current fragile bodies are swallowed up in their resurrected bodies.

Those who desire to defend a “spiritual� resurrection, need to demonstrate how all the nuances here are explicable as such. Why should the Corinthians not wish to be “unclothed� and found “naked�?

What would follow is 1 Cor. 15. But I think there is enough so far to chew on. From my perspective, the easiest explanation is that the original core of the Christian proclamation involved a bodily resurrection, the kind that would leave a tomb empty. Some will complain that “tomb� is only explicitly made in the gospels. I believe 1 Cor. 15 is far more sensible if assume some form of a “tomb narrative� lies behind “was buried�; for now, it will suffice to allow others to explain how they would like to get from a proclamation without a tomb, to one with a tomb, as well as make sense of the linguistic arguments mentioned above.

As far as I can see, even before looking at 1 Cor. 15, the spiritualists have a very steep climb ahead of them.

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Re: The original "gospel" message

Post #2

Post by Zzyzx »

.
liamconnor wrote: This OP is not about whether Jesus was raised but about what the earliest Christians believed about that event.
Of what significance is what ANY group of people believe(d)?

Most of us should be aware that individuals, groups, organizations 'believe' widely (or wildly) varying scenarios -- many of which relate to the world's 4000 religions (and countless subdivisions thereof).

A classic blunder in logic is to assume that 'many believe(d), so it must be true' -- known as argumentum ad populum -- "a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: 'If many believe so, it is so.'

"This type of argument is known by several names, including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, vox populi, and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

If argumentum ad populum was valid, ALL religious containing groups of believers would be deemed true and accurate.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: The original "gospel" message

Post #3

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 2 by Zzyzx]
This OP is especially to engage Yahwat and others who believe that Paul preached a ‘spiritual’ resurrection.
So you are saying that members who have come upon a common interest are not allowed to design an OP specific to that interest?

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Re: The original "gospel" message

Post #4

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]
I will put forward the argument that the best explanation for all the data is that the earliest Christians from Peter to Paul to the authors of the gospels all believed and preached that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead, leaving behind an empty tomb.
Okay I challenge this. If you're going to say "Person X believed Thing Y", you're going to have show at the very least Person X saying Thing Y, or writings from Person X where they avow Thing Y (since of course, it is possible to say or write things one does not actually believe in).

Where does Paul mention an empty tomb? Where does Paul mention a bodily resurrection?
The gospels were written last and therefore reveal the latest form of Christian beliefs. By that time bodily resurrection, the kind that would leave behind an empty tomb, was a fixed clause in Christian teaching.
Was it? Is there no possibility at all, in your thinking, that the Gospel writers quite simply made it up?
if we begin with the belief in a bodily resurrection, we have no difficulty;
Why should we begin with this? Oh I know you said up above Jesus was said to be resurrected, and Lazarus raised...but you gave no sources or citations or quotes or anything at all. So I chucked that up to pure opinion on your part.
Come on liam. Are you a trained historian or not? Where are the sources for your claims?
It is when we propose that the original belief entailed a spiritual, non-bodily resurrection that we come up against a problem: getting from a to z.
Because of course beliefs don't change over time. What Person A believes at the start of a movement's life-span is what Person Z believes 60 years later. /sarc
Thus the onus lies on those who need to trace an evolutionary process; how a spiritual resurrection becomes a bodily one, with the addition of an empty tomb, women as the first witnesses, and tactile encounters.
Which has been done by pointing out that the earliest documentation that we call Christian (Paul) does not mention an empty tomb, but later documentation does.
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Post #5

Post by alwayson »

According to Richard Carrier, Paul's letters indicate that Cephas (Peter), James, Paul etc. only knew Jesus from VISIONS/DREAMS, based on the Old Testament scriptures. Not what we would consider real life.

1 Cor. 15.:

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

The Scriptures Paul is referring to here are:

Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact Greek name of Jesus, describing him as confronting Satan, being crowned king in heaven, ‘rising’ from his place below, and building up God’s house, given supreme authority over God’s domain and ending all sins in a single day.

Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world.

Isaiah 52-53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant.

Psalm 22-24, which Mark copies the language of, describes the death-resurrection cycle.

Gerd Lüdemann:
"Not once does Paul refer to Jesus as a teacher, to his words as teaching, or to [any] Christians as disciples."

"Moreover, when Paul himself summarizes the content of his missionary preaching in Corinth (1 Cor. 2.1-2; 15.3-5), there is no hint that a narration of Jesus’ earthly life or a report of his earthly teachings was an essential part of it. . . . In the letter to the Romans, which cannot presuppose the apostle’s missionary preaching and in which he attempts to summarize its main points, we find not a single direct citation of Jesus’ teaching."


Furthermore, Richard Carrier points out Paul viewed the death of Jesus (who had a human body manufactured by God) as occurring in outer space.

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Re: The original "gospel" message

Post #6

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]
It should be noted that “resurrection� does not equate to “a raising�. Jesus was said to be resurrected; Jairus’ daughter, Lazarus; they were “raised�.
As a critique, I have to ask why you don't elaborate on the difference here between the two words. What is 'resurrection' and what is 'raised'?
the earliest Christians from Peter to Paul to the authors of the gospels all believed and preached
You may call this nit-picking, but to be precise, a claim of "Person A believed Thing Y" can NEVER be made in a historical investigation. Sure, we can find writings, or recordings showing Person A preaching things and infer that there is a high probability that he does indeed believe what he says, but to state flat out that he does? Are you a mind reader liam? Are you aware of the Clergy Project?
Notice though that I am not disputing what was being preached. Yes...it was preached.
By that time bodily resurrection, the kind that would leave behind an empty tomb, was a fixed clause in Christian teaching.
I'm going to have to ask you to be more precise in your wording. Is there now two different types of resurrection; resurrection, and then bodily resurrection? Or is it resurrection, bodily resurrection, and a sub-type of bodily resurrection that leaves behind empty tombs?
was a fixed clause in Christian teaching.
Was it? What year, or time period are you talking about? Can you give us a range?
It is when we propose that the original belief entailed a spiritual, non-bodily resurrection that we come up against a problem: getting from a to z.
How so? I see no problem. Beliefs change all the time. What I thought was true about the world twenty years ago is not the same as what I believe now.
Thus the onus lies on those who need to trace an evolutionary process;
Okay...so you think that you can say that your argument is that all the earliest Christians believed/preached in a bodily resurrection of Jesus...and that's enough? You don't need to actually show that that is indeed true, that it was actually being preached?
However...the moment someone else turns up who suggests something different, such as a spiritual resurrection...why then, THEY need to show their work!

The double standard you have liam is obvious for all to see.
I should point out one very large obstacle in this: bodily resurrection was a very Jewish belief. The kind of spiritual resurrection proposed on this forum would have sat well with Gentile conceptions. But when the gospels were written, the communities in which they were produced were largely Gentile. That is, we must explain how what started as a Gentile conception became more Jewish in theology as the church became more gentile in demography.
Is it impossible for people who belong to a certain community to have thoughts or beliefs at odds with their neighbours? Jesus himself was a Jew and according to Christianity, he preached things at odds with the Jewish mainstream.
What is most certain is that this preposition is not translated "inner" so as to exclude a corporeal revelation. That is a kind of sleight of hand move on the part of those pushing for a spiritual resurrection. The spiritualists need way more than this tiny preposition.
I'm not going to comment on the translation, since I don't speak a word of Greek myself. However, so far in my reading of the OP, I have not seen you actually support your argument positively, but have instead attacked the claimaints of a spiritual resurrection.
Still others like to point to 2 Cor 12 as providing evidence that Paul believed his encounter with Jesus was with an incorporeal, spiritual Jesus—similar to someone today saying, “I feel like grandma is speaking to me� (despite the fact that grandma is known to be buried six feet below in the local cemetery). This errors in two ways: first, 2 Cor. 12 does not refer to Paul’s initial encounter with Jesus. In that text Paul explicitly says that he saw things of which he cannot speak: but the original encounter with Jesus was explicit in its commission to preach the gospel, cf. Galatians. Second, the experiences recounted in 2 Cor. explicitly deny a necessarily incorporeal experience: Paul says he doesn’t know if he was in the body or out. For all he knows, his body may have been assumed into the heavenly sphere. Again, we cannot force upon 1st c. Jewish concepts our own modern ones.
This...doesn't strengthen your argument liam. At most, it can be summed up as "the meaning from 2 Cor 12 is inconclusive as to bodily resurrection"
And we may also point out that 2 Cor. as a whole preaches a physical resurrection.
Does it? Let's see...
Here is a look at 2 Cor. 4 14

Quote:
14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. (2Co 4:14 NAS).
We see here that Paul links Jesus’ resurrection with the future resurrection which believers will undergo. Now, if Jesus’ resurrection were conceived as “spiritual�, that is, non-bodily, we should expect our own to be ‘spiritual’, that is, non-bodily. Is that what we find? No. We read on: 2 Cor. 5:1
Uhh...liam, earlier you said
It should be noted that “resurrection� does not equate to “a raising�. Jesus was said to be resurrected; Jairus’ daughter, Lazarus; they were “raised�.

So if you're going to quote something that uses the word 'raised', I guess bodily resurrection is off the table?
Now, if Jesus’ resurrection were conceived as “spiritual�, that is, non-bodily, we should expect our own to be ‘spiritual’, that is, non-bodily. Is that what we find? No. We read on: 2 Cor. 5:1

Quote:
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven;
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked.


We see here that a disembodied soul is not the end which Paul has in mind; rather, Paul wishes that his present body (=tent) would be clothed with the heavenly body. Indeed, the verb for “clothed� is very strange: Paul adds a prefix so that what we have is �πενδύω; that is, to put on “over� something else.
I cannot rule out as valid someone interpreting this as meaning a spiritual resurrection.
From my perspective, the easiest explanation is that the original core of the Christian proclamation involved a bodily resurrection, the kind that would leave a tomb empty.
Even though what you quoted has the word 'raised'.
Ooops?
Some will complain that “tomb� is only explicitly made in the gospels. I believe 1 Cor. 15 is far more sensible if assume some form of a “tomb narrative� lies behind “was buried�;
Please do not assume. The contention (part of your argument) is that Paul believed in an empty tomb. Given that Paul not once refers to it in what writings we have from him, the contention is unsupported and thus unjustified.
If you continue to say that there is a 'tomb narrative' behind Paul's writings, then know that I hold it to be pure conjecture.

-----
Anyway, I have questions of my own. Here is your argument
the best explanation for all the data is that the earliest Christians from Peter to Paul to the authors of the gospels all believed and preached that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead, leaving behind an empty tomb.

1) Do you have writings from Paul indicating an empty tomb, a bodily resurrection?
2) Do you have writings from Peter indicating an empty, a bodily resurrection?
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Re: The original "gospel" message

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

I don't think any first century Christians after the Pentecost that remained in their number did not believe that Jesus had been resurrected - it was after all a priniple and elementary pillar if their faith, but Paul's letters indicate that some were unsure as to the timing and nature of the resurrection of the "holy ones" ie how the promised future resurrection of believers would proceed.

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