Freewill and Atheists

[liamconnor]

A good many here have complained that since God is omnipotent, he can compel belief; since he hasn't, he must not be very good.

This complaint involves too steps, one on the nature of omnipotence:

Theologians and Philosophers have long since noted that contradiction does not fall within the scope of omnipotence: not because God's power has met an obstacle, but because contradiction is a non-entity: the terms used are really just a combination of words that make a meaningless sentence. That we mistake the sentence as being meaningful is really a deficiency in intellect or perspective. The request that God bestow freewill upon a creature and in the same case withhold it, is tantamount to the request that "A square should be as blue as a circle is triangular." You see, the request is nonsensical. But we get tricked by our own language often and think we are making profound demands upon God.

The second step involves God's goodness. Surely if God is good, he wants my conversion and will do anything possible to have it!

I agree. Where atheists error is in thinking, "Because I don't believe, therefore either God is not good, or is not all powerful."

But this ignores God's goodness. Let's look at yourselves:

Do you really want some force "controlling your thoughts"? Are you not happy that you are masters of your own person? If there were a God, would you even want to be in a relationship with such, subjecting yourselves to another's will? According to Christian theology, God has given you all you want! You are your own. Masters of your own universe. So why complain that the fact that God has not forced you into submission is evidence he is not good; it looks quite the opposite. He has given you all you want?

[Willum]

The thoughts and desires of an omnipotent creature would overwhelm reality.

Therefore, we would see the universe, morality, everything really, very rapidly influenced were it not in line with these thoughts and desires.

Therefore the only possible conclusion is, if an omnipotent creature exists reality would dramatically and rapidly align to what this creature believed about it.

Therefore, he must believe about humanity the way it is now.
He must not desire for this to change.

He must desire the horror, he must not want many people in heaven, etc..

Certainly man can be saved in line with freewill by many paths.

Oh, well.

Next god, please.

[marco]

A good many here have complained that since God is omnipotent, he can compel belief; since he hasn't, he must not be very good.

Adam chose to eat, and was punished. Lot's wife chose to look, and was punished. Kids chose to mock, and were punished. The sybarites of Sodom were punished. The entire human population (minus Noah's group) was destroyed in the Flood.

Prisoners in a concentration camp could exercise free will; they could, if they wished, climb the enclosing fence. They would be killed.

It is fair to say, then, that humans, under God, have as much freedom as prisoners in a camp. Step too far and destruction cometh.

[Bust Nak]

Do you really want some force "controlling your thoughts"?

Above you talked about meaningless sentence, where exactly does "wants" come into the picture in a scenario where some force is controlling my thoughts?

Are you not happy that you are masters of your own person?

Yes.

If there were a God, would you even want to be in a relationship with such, subjecting yourselves to another's will?

Depends on how well this God's will aligns with mine.

According to Christian theology, God has given you all you want!

I don't have all I want, therefore Christian theology is false. Simple enough, no?

You are your own. Masters of your own universe. So why complain that the fact that God has not forced you into submission is evidence he is not good?

What I complain about is irrelevant. The point is we have proof (not evidence) he is not good, (or rather non existent.) In short, the problem of evil is a philosophical proof, whether we like or dislike God is irrelevant.

[OnceConvinced]

Where atheists error is in thinking, "Because I don't believe, therefore either God is not good, or is not all powerful."

I personally know of no atheist who comes to this conclusion because they don't believe. Strawman?

An atheist generally comes to the conclusion that God is not good based on the atrocities this God has committed in the bible.

An atheist normally comes to the conclusion that God is not all powerful when he fails to achieve something. If God is unable to convince us of his existence, then he can't possibly be all-powerful. It means he is impotent when it comes to convincing us.

No wonder people are always accusing you of erecting strawmen!

From my perspective, if I were to believe in gods, it could be those gods may be uncaring jerks who don't care about us. That would explain maybe why they haven't bothered to convince everyone of their existence. Maybe they just don't care whether you believe or not? Maybe for the majority of gods, their ego isn't so delicate as the bible God's? If you don't want to believe in them, then they don't care. Why would they? After all they are gods, not fallible humans.

Do you really want some force "controlling your thoughts"?

That all depends on what the ramifications are if you think the wrong thing. If thinking the wrong thing is going to have me suffering in agony for all eternity, then most definitely yes, I would want my thoughts controlled. Who wouldn't? If one is faced with Hell for having the wrong thoughts wouldn't one want something to prevent them from thinking wrongly? I certainly would and would welcome a god controlling my thoughts.

However controlling of thoughts is not something anyone here is asking for. All we atheists want is proof that God exists. There is no freewill violation going on when absolute proof has been presented. It's like in a Science class at school. Is our freewill violated when it's proven without a shadow of a doubt that say Sodium and Chlorine put together makes salt? No, there is no freewill violation going on. Nobody is controlling our thoughts by showing us proof of something.

What would be freewill violation, is after having proven that Sodium and Chlorine = Salt, that the person doing the proving forces you to put salt on your meals from here on in. That would be a violation of freewill. Likewise, with proof of God, no freewill is being violated. What would be a violation of freewill is if you were being forced to love or obey god.

But let's at least get to the proof that God exists first before we worry about whether we will love or obey him.

If there were a God, would you even want to be in a relationship with such, subjecting yourselves to another's will?

That would all depend on the God and what he requires and what he would do to me if I don't go along with his wishes. But first I must be convinced that this god exists before I determine whether I will be subject to his will. Surely that would be the only sensible approach?

It's like if you were having an internet relationship with some and that person proposed marriage to you. Wouldn't you want to prove this person was who they said they were before you agreed to committing yourself to that person?

According to Christian theology, God has given you all you want!

Which is clearly nonsense. If I had been given everything I needed I'd still be a Christian today. I am a person who would love to believe in God if there was one. However what I am seeing is mounting evidence of his nonexistence. I wish that wasn't the case.

When I was a Christian losing my faith, I was desperate for anything to cement my faith. The last thing I wanted was to be an ex-Christian

You need to be aware that all humans are different. Not all can live by faith. Not all will look at the world and come to the conclusion that "Wow! Goddidit" To presume all humans see things the same way is folly and one of the reasons we can know that the bible is not God's word. If he were real he would understand we aren't all going to look at things the same way. He would know that not all of us are going to be like that puddle who looks down and thinks "Wow, this hole was made especially for me!"

You are your own.

Much like if there were no god at all.

. So why complain that the fact that God has not forced you into submission is evidence he is not good; it looks quite the opposite. He has given you all you want?

Imagine if you were writhing in hell in absolute agony with no way out. Wouldn't you be complaining if God had never provided you with proof of his existence?

A god who would not make the effort to prove his existence to me who then throws me into Hell for not believing is clearly not a good god.

Note that I did not say that God was evil just because he didn't force me into submission. I say he was evil because he would not provide me with what I needed AND is going to throw me into Hell anyway.

In fact I would say that God was loving if he forced me into submission. I would realise that he is doing that for my own good because he does not want me to suffer for all eternity.

But regardless of all that, the bible clearly tells us that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. If we have not got to the point where we do that voluntarily it's going to take God to force us to our knees and confess. ie he will violate our freewill to do it.

If indeed we bow the knee and acknowledge Jesus is lord voluntarily then we are doing so because we have absolute proof he is real and worthy of that adoration.

So at some point along the line God is going to force us to know he exists whether we like it or not. The bible tells us this as a fact. Are you going to say that's not a violation of freewill?

If God forcing proof of his existence on Judgement Day is not a violation of our freewill then, why would it be a violation of our freewill now, while we were still alive on earth?

[OnceConvinced]

Do you really want some force "controlling your thoughts"?

If I specifically request it then yes, I want a force to (momentarily) control my thoughts. If an atheist asks God "make me believe" then he evidently wants God to control his thoughts. But see here's the thing... God doesn't even have to control our thoughts to make us believe. I would be happy with the kind of revelation Paul had. Did God violate Paul's free will by appearing to him?

I am one such person who would be happy for God to control my thoughts. In fact I invite God to do just that. I am actually exercising my freewill in my request to ask God to do that. I think it would give me huge advantages if God were to control my thoughts and it would ensure I do not end up in Hell for all eternity.

So using my freewill I request god to take away my freewill when it comes to my thoughts. Surely God would have no problem with that request? Surely he'd be happy enough to oblige without breaking his own rules?

God doesn't even have to control our thoughts to make us believe. I would be happy with the kind of revelation Paul had. Did God violate Paul's free will by appearing to him?

Exactly. As I say time and time again on this site, God, if he is real, knows me better than I know myself and would know exactly what it would take to have me believe and would to it if he loved me as much as he claimed.

I welcome God to force knowledge of his existence on me. I welcome it with open arms. I exercise that freewill and request that god force proof of himself onto me. In fact I say please, pretty please with ice cream on top.