Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

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polonius
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Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation – New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christ’s universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13–16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1–8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israel’s tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9–10; 18:1–19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

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Post #151

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Only those who have believed in this life will be resurrected to eternal life. There is no evidence Adam will be included.



There is also no evidence that Adam won't be included in the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection). Whether he receives eternal life (or not) is not up to us, but to God.


I hope he learned from his error, and the subsequent suffering he caused by his sin. I hope he (and Eve) can be shown mercy and receive eternal life as well.


Regardless, many will still receive a resurrection and be given eternal life, even if they did not believe in this life.


‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #152

Post by Checkpoint »

tam wrote: Peace to you,
Only those who have believed in this life will be resurrected to eternal life. There is no evidence Adam will be included.



There is also no evidence that Adam won't be included in the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection). Whether he receives eternal life (or not) is not up to us, but to God.


I hope he learned from his error, and the subsequent suffering he caused by his sin. I hope he (and Eve) can be shown mercy and receive eternal life as well.


Regardless, many will still receive a resurrection and be given eternal life, even if they did not believe in this life.


‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Interesting possibilities.

We do not, and cannot, know many specifics; surprises do seem likely, one way or the other.

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #153

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]
I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.
An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.
Matthew 19:26 says, "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Do you feel her 'dream' or hope to be foolish? (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

That hope is not based on nothing.

Psalm 37:11, 29 David wrote: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, ...The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.�

Isaiah 11:6-8. states, “And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand.�​

Isaiah 45:18, 19. says, “This is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ‘I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. . . . I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.’�​

Isaiah 55:11 says, "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."


If you think hope in these scriptures to be foolish then you must think I'm a fool too because I too have hope and faith that these scriptures are true.
I do not think her hope, or yours, is foolish, but misplaced.

I do not think scriptures are foolish, but that our understanding of their meaning and their context will vary, and may change over time, as it has for me.
Could you please explain how we are misplaced in our understandings of the Scriptures that timothy posted?

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #154

Post by onewithhim »

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 142 by 2timothy316]

Psalm 37:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:29 King James Version (KJV)

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Once again it is up to interpretation.
The humblest of farmers has great respect for earth and will take care of it as his very life depends on it.
That in itself makes him righteous.
These kinds of people will dwell on earth forever, otherwise the earth, a living organism, could not sustain itself.
What kind of hope is there if people will die and that's the end of them? It is misplaced to think that the earth will go on and the human race will go on, but individual people will not. How is that a comforting thought?

The Scriptures tell us of a resurrection of the dead. What would be the point if these people, after they are brought back to life, could not continue living? And if they do continue living, then how are our beliefs "misplaced," as Checkpoint put it, if we believe that the Scriptures say that people will live forever as at Psalm 37:9,11 and 29? I really don't get what the problem is.

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #155

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]
I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.
An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.
Matthew 19:26 says, "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Do you feel her 'dream' or hope to be foolish? (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

That hope is not based on nothing.

Psalm 37:11, 29 David wrote: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, ...The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.�

Isaiah 11:6-8. states, “And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand.�​

Isaiah 45:18, 19. says, “This is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ‘I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. . . . I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.’�​

Isaiah 55:11 says, "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."


If you think hope in these scriptures to be foolish then you must think I'm a fool too because I too have hope and faith that these scriptures are true.
I do not think her hope, or yours, is foolish, but misplaced.

I do not think scriptures are foolish, but that our understanding of their meaning and their context will vary, and may change over time, as it has for me.
Could you please explain how we are misplaced in our understandings of the Scriptures that timothy posted?
As I look at these recent exchanges, I see two aspects or factors.

1. What timothy posted were all written before Christ came, and some need to be read in the light of NT realities and revelation.

2. I called what you wrote "an impossible dream" because I believe chosen scriptures are being misplaced by putting them into the thousand years rather than into the new heaven and earth.

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #156

Post by 2timothy316 »

Checkpoint wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 130 by onewithhim]
I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.
An impossible dream.

Words fail me at this point.
Matthew 19:26 says, "Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Do you feel her 'dream' or hope to be foolish? (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

That hope is not based on nothing.

Psalm 37:11, 29 David wrote: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, ...The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.�

Isaiah 11:6-8. states, “And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand.�​

Isaiah 45:18, 19. says, “This is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ‘I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. . . . I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.’�​

Isaiah 55:11 says, "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."


If you think hope in these scriptures to be foolish then you must think I'm a fool too because I too have hope and faith that these scriptures are true.
I do not think her hope, or yours, is foolish, but misplaced.

I do not think scriptures are foolish, but that our understanding of their meaning and their context will vary, and may change over time, as it has for me.
Could you please explain how we are misplaced in our understandings of the Scriptures that timothy posted?
As I look at these recent exchanges, I see two aspects or factors.

1. What timothy posted were all written before Christ came, and some need to be read in the light of NT realities and revelation.
"He the true God, the Former of the earth...who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited:"
“The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.�
"so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

So you're saying that Jehovah, creator of the Earth DID create the it for nothing and no one will reside on it forever and that what comes out of Jehovah's mouth sometimes doesn't achieve the purpose for which He sent it.
2. I called what you wrote "an impossible dream" because I believe chosen scriptures are being misplaced by putting them into the thousand years rather than into the new heaven and earth.
Using the scriptures, explain please the 'New Earth' compared to what we live in now.

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #157

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 156 by 2timothy316]
1. What timothy posted were all written before Christ came, and some need to be read in the light of NT realities and revelation.

"He the true God, the Former of the earth...who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited:"
“The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.�
"so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

So you're saying that Jehovah, creator of the Earth DID create the it for nothing and no one will reside on it forever and that what comes out of Jehovah's mouth sometimes doesn't achieve the purpose for which He sent it.
Not at all.


Quote:

2. I called what you wrote "an impossible dream" because I believe chosen scriptures are being misplaced by putting them into the thousand years rather than into the new heaven and earth.

Using the scriptures, explain please the 'New Earth' compared to what we live in now.
Explain? Compare? Yes, but not in my words.
Revelation 21:

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,�a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

2I I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.�

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!� Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.�

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #158

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 157 by Checkpoint]

So what do you think the "new Jerusalem" is?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #159

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 157 by Checkpoint]

So what do you think the "new Jerusalem" is?
What I think or what others think is not definitive.

We still struggle to grasp many things, for we know only in part.

Sometimes we must let our words be few.

What God thinks is seen in what God says, and in His way; that is what is definitive.

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Re: Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not litera

Post #160

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 157 by Checkpoint]

So what do you think the "new Jerusalem" is?
What I think or what others think is not definitive.
Yes, I understand that. I was just asking for opinion on what the "New Jerusalem" is, do you have one?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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