If the Trinity is such an important revelation, if it's reality and not just a human, theological construct, why didn't Jesus teach it repeatedly and explicitly?
If Jesus did teach the Trinity, where does he do so...explictly, and repeatedly?
If the Trinity is true and important..
Moderator: Moderators
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #1 My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9198
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 189 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
Three points:
So are you arguing science isn't important?
---
The Trinity is a logical out working from the Bible text. Without it one is left in a mess of contradictions and ends up saying that they have faith in God to resolve them. I don't think God (a loving, good God) would do that to their followers.
--
If you are standing on the road and hear the engine, see the lights, hear the horn. Are you going to wait until the truck explicitly makes itself known to you or do you use the information you have to make a rational decision?
Three points:
So are you arguing science isn't important?
---
The Trinity is a logical out working from the Bible text. Without it one is left in a mess of contradictions and ends up saying that they have faith in God to resolve them. I don't think God (a loving, good God) would do that to their followers.
--
If you are standing on the road and hear the engine, see the lights, hear the horn. Are you going to wait until the truck explicitly makes itself known to you or do you use the information you have to make a rational decision?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
liamconnor
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3170
- Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 1:18 pm
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #3[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
None of the N.T. writers made belief in the Trinity the fundamental doctrine by which man is saved.
Apparently, they thought the gospel was not "God is three Persons, One Substance; believe this and you will be saved."
The N.T. is about what God has done to fix a broken world: i.e. the "good news". From this we extrapolate certain doctrine which were implied or existed on the peripheral, but were not the core of the gospel.
For instance, it is equally important that God is omnipresent: to deny this is to render him finite and, thereby, making him a creature.
But the omnipresence of God shows up (to the best of my knowledge) nowhere in the N.T. It was not the core of the gospel.
None of the N.T. writers made belief in the Trinity the fundamental doctrine by which man is saved.
Apparently, they thought the gospel was not "God is three Persons, One Substance; believe this and you will be saved."
The N.T. is about what God has done to fix a broken world: i.e. the "good news". From this we extrapolate certain doctrine which were implied or existed on the peripheral, but were not the core of the gospel.
For instance, it is equally important that God is omnipresent: to deny this is to render him finite and, thereby, making him a creature.
But the omnipresence of God shows up (to the best of my knowledge) nowhere in the N.T. It was not the core of the gospel.
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9198
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 189 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #5[Replying to post 4 by tam]
Sure. The two that come to mind are:
1) If God is just then he can't be merciful, if God is merciful then he can't be just.
2) If Jesus is not God then how can his death pay for sins against God?
Only through God justly paying the price for our sins can God be just and merciful.
Sure. The two that come to mind are:
1) If God is just then he can't be merciful, if God is merciful then he can't be just.
2) If Jesus is not God then how can his death pay for sins against God?
Only through God justly paying the price for our sins can God be just and merciful.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
- Contact:
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #6Peace to you Wootah!
Before I respond, I just want to point out that the two things you presented as conflicts refer to two beings; not three (trinity).
Before I respond, I just want to point out that the two things you presented as conflicts refer to two beings; not three (trinity).
You might have to flesh that out a little because although it is 'catchy'... I do not see why it should be accepted as being true.Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 4 by tam]
Sure. The two that come to mind are:
1) If God is just then he can't be merciful, if God is merciful then he can't be just.
God is LOVE.
Mercy comes from love (against which there is no law, Gal 5:23). So of course God is merciful. Why would His justice then, not include (or be tempered by) mercy?
Indeed, Christ even said,
"Be merciful, and mercy will be shown you."
Is that not both just and merciful?
2) If Jesus is not God then how can his death pay for sins against God?
Christ gave His life in exchange for our lives, yes?
Which is what the law - Life for life - is meant to be about.
(Mind you this ransom was not paid to God - God was not holding us captive - the ransom was paid to Death. And none of our own lives would have sufficed... we were already subject to death; all going to die at some point. Christ however - the LIFE - was not subject to death. He would never have died; he did not have to die, He did no wrong. His life has enough value to cover all of our lives - indeed all life in creation. He IS the Life, after all, the tree of LIFE.)
He did pay that price - with His Son; by sacrificing His Son, who willingly gave His life for our lives. Life for life.Only through God justly paying the price for our sins can God be just and merciful.
I am not sure I understand why you think that does not suffice?
Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
-
tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 324 times
- Contact:
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #7Peace to you liam,
liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
None of the N.T. writers made belief in the Trinity the fundamental doctrine by which man is saved.
That would be because it is through Christ that we are saved.
After all, it is:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
It is not:
"... that whosoever believes in the trinity shall not perish but have every lasting life..."
And the name of Christ (Jaheshua) means:
Jah Saves/Salvation of JAh
**
That is because - of course - that the gospel (good news) is not the trinity.Apparently, they thought the gospel was not "God is three Persons, One Substance; believe this and you will be saved.
Christ is Himself the good news (gospel) of the Kingdom. That is why they (and we) preach Christ, when we are preaching the good news OF the Kingdom.
The N.T. is about what God has done to fix a broken world: i.e. the "good news".
Christ is the good news. Through Him we are reconciled to God. Through Him we are given the right to become children of God. Through Him we enter the Kingdom. Though Him we may receive eternal life. Through Him we are made clean. Etc, etc.
The gospels are written accounts bearing witness to Christ. Some of letters in the NT are also addressing concerns of the early disciples and recounting the steps of some of those early disciples as well; as well as some prophecy (Revelation for instance).
Some extrapolate certain doctrines which they think were implied or that existed on the peripheral.From this we extrapolate certain doctrine which were implied or existed on the peripheral, but were not the core of the gospel.
But it does show up in the OT:For instance, it is equally important that God is omnipresent: to deny this is to render him finite and, thereby, making him a creature.
But the omnipresence of God shows up (to the best of my knowledge) nowhere in the N.T. It was not the core of the gospel.
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me." Psalm 139:7-10
The trinity does not show up in the OT (or the NT), and Christ did not teach it.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #8[Replying to Elijah John]
This is an example of what is sometimes called the “word/thing� fallacy. (It might have a more formal name; I’m not sure.) That is, it assumes that sense the specific language that we use to describe a concept is not found, the idea itself is absent.
In this case, the common extra-biblical descriptions of the trinity are not found in the Bible. However, the three main doctrines that lead to the doctrine of the trinity are. Those are:
There is one God.
Jesus is not the Father.
Jesus is God.
These three doctrines are repeatedly and explicitly described throughout the entire NT. Combined with some albeit less common statements about the Holy Spirit, the inevitable conclusion of these statements is the doctrine of the trinity.
This is an example of what is sometimes called the “word/thing� fallacy. (It might have a more formal name; I’m not sure.) That is, it assumes that sense the specific language that we use to describe a concept is not found, the idea itself is absent.
In this case, the common extra-biblical descriptions of the trinity are not found in the Bible. However, the three main doctrines that lead to the doctrine of the trinity are. Those are:
There is one God.
Jesus is not the Father.
Jesus is God.
These three doctrines are repeatedly and explicitly described throughout the entire NT. Combined with some albeit less common statements about the Holy Spirit, the inevitable conclusion of these statements is the doctrine of the trinity.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9198
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 189 times
- Been thanked: 108 times
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #9[Replying to post 6 by tam]
Suppose you go to court because someone has murdered your family. Then the judge decides that they are guilty. Then the judge decides to administer the full penalty against them and sentences them to that full penalty. How is that merciful?
There is no logical way to resolve these two values without the Trinity.
It might be beneficial if you can acknowledge the problem at hand before we worry further about how Jesus can resolve it.
Jesus pays the ransom, redeems us, pays for our sins. There are many ways of explaining it. As you said it is really all just an issue of eye for an eye. Which I agree with. But can a man pay for sins against God? If the eye is God's how can we pay?
Suppose you go to court because someone has murdered your family. Then the judge decides that they are guilty. Then the judge decides to show mercy on them and let's them free. How is that just?You might have to flesh that out a little because although it is 'catchy'... I do not see why it should be accepted as being true.
Suppose you go to court because someone has murdered your family. Then the judge decides that they are guilty. Then the judge decides to administer the full penalty against them and sentences them to that full penalty. How is that merciful?
There is no logical way to resolve these two values without the Trinity.
It might be beneficial if you can acknowledge the problem at hand before we worry further about how Jesus can resolve it.
Jesus pays the ransom, redeems us, pays for our sins. There are many ways of explaining it. As you said it is really all just an issue of eye for an eye. Which I agree with. But can a man pay for sins against God? If the eye is God's how can we pay?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
Re: If the Trinity is true and important..
Post #10How does the Trinity resolve this contradiction exactly?Wootah wrote: Suppose you go to court because someone has murdered your family. Then the judge decides that they are guilty. Then the judge decides to show mercy on them and let's them free. How is that just?
Suppose you go to court because someone has murdered your family. Then the judge decides that they are guilty. Then the judge decides to administer the full penalty against them and sentences them to that full penalty. How is that merciful?
There is no logical way to resolve these two values without the Trinity.
