The Greek Gods

[Willum]

Hey those Romans, they were wacky!
Does everyone remember that they carried the message of the trinity; Zeus, Pluto and Poseidon and their twelve apostle gods to the world, who did magical deeds and had incredible adventures against magical creatures?

How we all used to believe these stories, and obey their 'world' government because it was empowered by that trinity? How we used to pay tribute to Caesar in the name of those gods?

Fortunately for us, Rome abandoned Zeus and etc., and gave us the true trinity, with it twelve real human apostles, who told us to obey their government and because it was empowered by this trinity? How Jesus himself told us pay taxes and obey Rome in the name of God?

How he was raised from the dead and resisted the devil?

So, question for debate: The Romans brought us both Greek myths,* to obey government, and the Palestinian story, also to obey governments.

Why do we believe one story over the other? They were both brought to us by the same people with aligned purposes.
They both had floods, giants, strongmen, healing and resurrections.

Even the God is the same: Zeus is just another spelling of Deus, that god of the Catholic world, who is also Jove, which is phonetically pronounced Yahweh.

Which story is more, believable/valid, and why?

* = Though these myths are growing in actual worshipers of a kind - so "myths" is used in Western tradition, not meant disrespectfully to those devout to the re-emerging religion.

[1213]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Please explain what do you mean with the “Palestinian story�?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

The Greek myth vs the Palestinian story...

I am trying very hard to be respectful and not call the contents of the NT another myth.

So the Palestinian story is what Roma canonized as the Bible in 297 AD.

[1213]

So the Palestinian story is what Roma canonized as the Bible in 297 AD.

In that case, I think your claim “to obey government� is baseless and irrational, is not based on what the Bible tells.

But what do you think, would it really be reasonable to make you think Bible is anti-governmental? If people would think so, governments would again begin to persecute Christians. There is no good reason to chance your belief when it could be used against Christians. But I hope that those who are disciples of Jesus read the Bible and think by themselves how it is.

[Willum]

So the Palestinian story is what Roma canonized as the Bible in 297 AD.

In that case, I think your claim “to obey government� is baseless and irrational, is not based on what the Bible tells.

Hmmm, baseless and irrational, don't you even READ the book you allegedly worship from?

[Replying to post 4 by 1213]

11. Submission to Civil Authorities (1 Peter 2:13-17)

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

Romans 13

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority?

So, baseless and irrational? How about:

He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is he desires, and to God what is God's."

So, err, and which story is more believable and why?

[1213]

...Hmmm, baseless and irrational, don't you even READ the book you allegedly worship from?...

Yes, I have also read the parts that atheists ignore.

And in this case, it is curious, why was Paul and Jesus persecuted and Jesus killed, if he was so good “obey the government� man?

But I don’t want to make you think Bible is against governments, because then the governments could again try to destroy Bible and all who believe it. All though I think that will eventually happen later anyway.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 6 by 1213]

Aparently you DIDN'T read if you can't answer your own question.

He was persecuted by the Jews, and arrested by the authorities.

If he violated the commandements, such as recommending that the adulterous woman NOT be stoned, as apropos under Jewish law, or advocated obeying the PAGAN Roman government, OR advocated so much as TOUCHING the coins that had graven images of the (proclaimed god) Augustus/Tiberius, then the Jews would quite rightly insist on his death.

Pilate, would have to agree of face riot in his realm, and probably removal from his office.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 6 by 1213]

And in this case, it is curious, why was Paul and Jesus persecuted and Jesus killed, if he was so good “obey the government� man?

People can preach obeying the government, and yet still be persecuted by that very same government.

Do you agree that North Korea has lots of people advocating obeying the government there?
Do you agree that the North Korean government arrests, imprisons, even executes lots of people, even some of those who advocated for it in the first place?

The fact that Rome was a facilitator in the death of Jesus, and had Paul under house arrest, does NOT change that what writings we have from Paul and what was allegedly taught by Jesus, does indeed advocate obeying governments.
After all...it's not like Paul was put under house arrest BEFORE he wrote "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities,"

Also think about it...Acts 25 has Paul subjecting himself to the authority of Caesar.
from verse 10
Paul answered: “I am now standing before Caesar’s court, where I ought to be tried. I have not done any wrong to the Jews, as you yourself know very well. 11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!�

[1213]

People can preach obeying the government, and yet still be persecuted by that very same government.

Perhaps, perhaps, it doesn’t seem reasonable though. Would be more reasonable to execute those that are against the government.

Do you agree that North Korea has lots of people advocating obeying the government there?
Do you agree that the North Korean government arrests, imprisons, even executes lots of people, even some of those who advocated for it in the first place?

Actually, I don’t really know what happens in North Korea. I only have some hearsay rumors from people that I don’t believe have been there.

The fact that Rome was a facilitator in the death of Jesus, and had Paul under house arrest, does NOT change that what writings we have from Paul and what was allegedly taught by Jesus, does indeed advocate obeying governments.

There are two things in this, obey government when it says don’t murder steal… …and judges if somebody does crime. I agree with that, because it is also in line with God’s Law. However, the difference and problem come when the government wants to be god. For disciples of Jesus there is just one true God and his is higher than any government for them. And if obeying government would go over that, it is not something that disciples of Jesus, or Jesus would have accepted. Disciples of Jesus may submit, they don’t fight physically, and that is why they can even be killed by government, but it doesn’t mean they obey every whim of government.

[1213]

... the commandements, such as recommending that the adulterous woman NOT be stoned, as apropos under Jewish law....

If Jesus was wrong and the Jews right, why didn’t they stone the woman? It seems they understood that Jesus is right or that they kept Jesus as their king and obeyed him?

....or advocated obeying the PAGAN Roman government, OR advocated so much as TOUCHING the coins that had graven images of the (proclaimed god) Augustus/Tiberius, then the Jews would quite rightly insist on his death...

But if Roman coins were bad, wasn’t it then right from Jesus to say that give the coins back to Caesar?