The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[JP Cusick]

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

The correct doctrine from the Bible is that the "Lake of fire" is a place of cleaning and purification.

No one goes to any place of torment, and the real torment is here and now in this evil lifetime.

See here:
" If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. " 1 Corinthians 3:15

The sins are burned while the sinners get saved.

As such every person gets saved and not even one (1) gets left out or lost.

As to the second death - the Apostle Paul declares that to be death to sin, see "dead to sin" Romans 6:2-11

Some few people die to sin in this lifetime, while most people have the second death (death to sin) later at the time of Judgment.

It is a great plan of eternal salvation for all.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by myth-one.com]

Nice work: I admire the effort you have put into your presentation. Kudos.

Are you sure #3 every human will be resurrected? What about those condemned by Jesus, like Judas?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 1 by myth-one.com]

Nice work: I admire the effort you have put into your presentation. Kudos.

Are you sure #3 every human will be resurrected? What about those condemned by Jesus, like Judas?

It sounds like you clicked on #3 above and saw the "Biblical Proof" for that claim.

Not sure I could add much. There are three resurrections of importance mentioned in the Bible -- that of Jesus, that of believers at the Second Coming, and that of nonbelievers a thousand years after the Second Coming. That includes every human who ever lived -- including Judas.

Why is Judas any more condemned than anyone else? We have all sinned, and all of us are condemned to the second death.

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Judas did repent and made some amends by giving the silver back. He also sinned against someone who is very "big" on forgiveness!

Thanks for the nice comment & the "like."

Hope you click on the other links and have other questions and/or suggestions for improvements.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 4 by myth-one.com]

Well I just used him as an example of someone that sinned against the holy spirit for which, as Jesus put it there is not forgiveness. Since someone can sin in this way during their present life on earth, what would be the point of ressurecting them?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 4 by myth-one.com]

Well I just used him as an example of someone that sinned against the holy spirit for which, as Jesus put it there is not forgiveness. Since someone can sin in this way during their present life on earth, what would be the point of ressurecting them?

Ok, I understand. You're referring to the unforgivable sin:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)

The Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, or Comfortable came to the earth to replace Jesus. Jesus spoke the following to the apostles shortly after his resurrection:

And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Acts 1:4-5)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

Blasphemy is defined in The Random House College Dictionary as: The crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

Assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God is exactly what Satan did when he rebelled against God. He attempted to usurp God's authority. It is also the sin Satan wants us to commit by believing the lie; "Ye shall not surely die." By believing this lie we assume the one quality of God which we lack -- that of eternal life.

Judas did not commit the unforgivable sin. Jesus is the Word made flesh -- not the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.

But I see your point on that.

My answer is that they will be resurrected in the second resurrection with the nonbelievers as a human, face the judgment, and be cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish.

All believers who assume to themselves everlasting life while a human, are committing the unforgivable sin by assuming to themselves the Godly quality of immortality.

But, this sin will not be imputed to them -- as they do not realize that it is a sin:

For sin is the transgression of the law.            (I John 3:4)

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Men whom they admire and respect preach the lie of immortality, and they believe the lie.

A few to the point of fillicide.

[myth-one.com]

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

The correct doctrine from the Bible is that the "Lake of fire" is a place of cleaning and purification.

No one goes to any place of torment, and the real torment is here and now in this evil lifetime.

See here:
" If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. " 1 Corinthians 3:15

The sins are burned while the sinners get saved.

As such every person gets saved and not even one (1) gets left out or lost.

As to the second death - the Apostle Paul declares that to be death to sin, see "dead to sin" Romans 6:2-11

Some few people die to sin in this lifetime, while most people have the second death (death to sin) later at the time of Judgment.

It is a great plan of eternal salvation for all.

God is just and true:

Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

That being the case, God is not going to force salvation on anyone!

It is our individual choice.

[JP Cusick]

God is just and true:

Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

That being the case, God is not going to force salvation on anyone!

It is our individual choice.

I followed your exorbitant rules as I quoted the correct Bible Theology along with links to the Bible text, and very clearly defined the eternal fate of nonbelievers and of infidels and of all sorts of sinners, but here you reject the truth on an absurd stance that salvation is an act of force which it is not - it is wonderful.

We learn from the Bible that justice and truth by human standards are cold and cruel, but for God justice and truth are built upon forgiveness and reconciliation and on love including love for thy enemies. Matthew 5:43-48, so yes God is just and true.

Not even one sinful sheep is left out or lost.

In this life sinful people vainly think that they have real choices, but in fact people have very few and limited choices as an individual or as a group, so no - the salvation of God's children by their loving Father is not some choice that can be accepted or rejected.

It is like being born into this world, because no one made any choice to be born, and no one chooses to die, and no one gets to choose to be resurrected or not, and on the Judgment Day when every person gets saved then there will be great joy and happiness. Romans 14:7-13 "every knee bows, every tongue confess, and no man dieth to himself."

[myth-one.com]

God is just and true:

Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

That being the case, God is not going to force salvation on anyone!

It is our individual choice.

I followed your exorbitant rules as I quoted the correct Bible Theology along with links to the Bible text, and very clearly defined the eternal fate of nonbelievers and of infidels and of all sorts of sinners, but here you reject the truth on an absurd stance that salvation is an act of force which it is not - it is wonderful.

We learn from the Bible that justice and truth by human standards are cold and cruel, but for God justice and truth are built upon forgiveness and reconciliation and on love including love for thy enemies. Matthew 5:43-48, so yes God is just and true.

Not even one sinful sheep is left out or lost.

In this life sinful people vainly think that they have real choices, but in fact people have very few and limited choices as an individual or as a group, so no - the salvation of God's children by their loving Father is not some choice that can be accepted or rejected.

It is like being born into this world, because no one made any choice to be born, and no one chooses to die, and no one gets to choose to be resurrected or not, and on the Judgment Day when every person gets saved then there will be great joy and happiness. Romans 14:7-13 "every knee bows, every tongue confess, and no man dieth to himself."

You defined the fate of all mankind as being forced into everlasting life.

That takes away the freedom to choose.

The original angels were created directly as everlasting spirits -- and that did not totally work out, as a third rebelled.

So the original angels are the ones which had no choice.

Mankind had no choice in being born as mortal humans.

But we were created a little below the angels and are given the choice to participate in everlasting life.

You take that choice away by inflicting everlasting life on every human.

Here's how God puts it:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

While He recommends the pro life choice, the choice remains as our responsibility.

God will honor either of the two choices. There is nothing wrong with choosing everlasting death, if that is one's desire.

You say that salvation is not a choice, it is mandated to all, and yet it is not forced upon any of us.

How can that be?

What's the point of creating man a little lower than the angels, and making respect for God a prerequisite for gaining everlasting life?

You know, like the Bible states.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by myth-one.com]

Well I agree with you on some points:

#That there are two types of bodies spiritual and physical. All individuals (I would add "including God") have one or the other and that we don't have one living "inside" of the other.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102013167

- I agree

- I disagree that spirits are "indestructable" or immoral (I doubt if they cannot feel "pain" ie a feeling of discomfort/disagreeable senstions, although we cannot know for sure;we know from Daniel they can certainly feel tired)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

# the end of life, the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions. Death is the absence of life.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -the-dead/

- I agree in your definition of death

- I disagree that the "second death" doesn't fall under exactly the same definition.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002669


#3 And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected: - all humans who die will be made alive again, or resurrected. This includes believers and nonbelievers

- I agree there will be a general resurrection that will inlcude non-believers

- I totally disagree; some humans will not be resurreced and not all humans will have to die.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002975

# 4 But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.

- I agree in your order of the resurrection

- I disagree that ALL non-believers will be resurrected (see above)

#5 All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air

- I agree that spirit anointed Christians alive during Christ's coming will be taken to heaven at that time

- i disagree that ALL Christians will face this eventuality
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009240

#6) At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.

- I disagree that there will be no living human Christian after Christ's second coming
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... ear-reign/


#8, 9, 10 Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment.

- I agree that there will be a judgement of resurrected non-believers. I would say however there will be a judgement of all that are alive during the millennium.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002547

# The only possibility is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process.

- I would agree that the eternal future of those (all humans living during that time) will depend on what they do during this "judgement process" but ...

- that "judgement process" is in fact t1000 years long. Judement days = millenium= 1000 year reign.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012645