The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

No, puppets are controlled by others.

God did not command Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge.

He commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

They did not do as He directed -- so they were not puppets before the fall.

They were free agents, and they freely chose to disobey God.

Now we are learning that was not the best thing to do.

One of the world's wisest men after a lifetime of seeking treasure, women, and whatever appeared to bring him pleasure; reached this final conclusion of the whole matter of life:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

This is the lesson we are here to learn in our short lifetime, that we should fear God and keep His commandments.

We learn this lesson by trying our way and failing. The answers about the best way to live are in the scriptures.

We learn this through trial, error, and hard knocks -- like Solomon.

If we learn it at all.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

That Adam fell shows he was never a puppet, just as he was never "pure spirit".

Man was made in God's image and likeness, and was thus given dominion over other created life.

At the same time, man was made male and female, which no "pure spirit" is.

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

No, puppets are controlled by others.

God did not command Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge.

He commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

They did not do as He directed -- so they were not puppets before the fall.

They were free agents, and they freely chose to disobey God.

Now we are learning that was not the best thing to do.

One of the world's wisest men after a lifetime of seeking treasure, women, and whatever appeared to bring him pleasure; reached this final conclusion of the whole matter of life:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

This is the lesson we are here to learn in our short lifetime, that we should fear God and keep His commandments.

We learn this lesson by trying our way and failing. The answers about the best way to live are in the scriptures.

We learn this through trial, error, and hard knocks -- like Solomon.

If we learn it at all.

Show me where man is a free agent in scripture? He had no choice in the garden it was God's will according to Ps. 90 and Romans 8:20 which you have rejected over and over again and keep assuming you have proof Adam did this by his own choice.

The religious word freewill; the reason I call it religious word because the word freewill is not in the scripture.

Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation or Adam's sin.

The Bible is God’s will; His Word and all of God’s it will be accomplished. It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word. God call/calls/draws/drags people which is totally contrary to the religious man made doctrine from Rome. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being drawn or dragged in fact it totally to the contrary.

Romans 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag

Jeremiah 18:2
Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.




Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

That Adam fell shows he was never a puppet, just as he was never "pure spirit".

Man was made in God's image and likeness, and was thus given dominion over other created life.

At the same time, man was made male and female, which no "pure spirit" is.

So you are ignoring all the verses from when God created Adam to where God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

That Adam fell shows he was never a puppet, just as he was never "pure spirit".

Man was made in God's image and likeness, and was thus given dominion over other created life.

At the same time, man was made male and female, which no "pure spirit" is.

So you are ignoring all the verses from when God created Adam to where God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.

I ignore no such verses, as your description does not convey what they say but what you read into them.

[myth-one.com]

So you are ignoring all the verses from when God created Adam to where God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.

The creation of the earth is declared to be completed in Genesis 2:1:

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Genesis 2:4 states that the verses that follow describe the generations of the heavens and the earth in detail when they were created in chapter 1:

These (following verses) are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created (in Chapter one), in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens (in other words, the following verses are history because the heavens and earth were completed by Genesis 2:1!),

So chapter two details how things were created.

For example, on the sixth day, God created man and woman:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

But how did God generate man and woman on the sixth day? The answer to that question is in Chapter 2 of Genesis:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God does not create or modify man again in genesis 2:7, He simply states how man was generated in Genesis 1:27!

So God formed man in the image of God from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul in Genesis 1:27.

Now do you understand??

[myth-one.com]

Show me where man is a free agent in scripture?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

He had no choice in the garden . . .

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God forbade them from eating of the tree of knowledge.

They could choose to obey or disobey God's command.

They could also have chosen to eat from the tree of life and live forever.

God expelled them from the garden so that they would not do so.

If they could not have chosen to eat from the tree of life, there would have been no cause to relocate them.

Relocating them from the tree of life proves that they could choose to eat from that tree.

It's called freedom of choice.

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.

That Adam fell shows he was never a puppet, just as he was never "pure spirit".

Man was made in God's image and likeness, and was thus given dominion over other created life.

At the same time, man was made male and female, which no "pure spirit" is.

So you are ignoring all the verses from when God created Adam to where God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.

I ignore no such verses, as your description does not convey what they say but what you read into them.

Than you tell us what they say and show me where I am wrong. All this is is hot air.

[Benoni]

Show me where man is a free agent in scripture?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

He had no choice in the garden . . .

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God forbade them from eating of the tree of knowledge.

They could choose to obey or disobey God's command.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

They could also have chosen to eat from the tree of life and live forever.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

God expelled them from the garden so that they would not do so.

Do what?

If they could not have chosen to eat from the tree of life, there would have been no cause to relocate them.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

Relocating them from the tree of life proves that they could choose to eat from that tree.

Where does it say that? But it does say:" Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

It's called freedom of choice.

And where in the Bible does it say we have a freedom of choice? We did not choose Adam to fall. We did not choose to have a body of sin and death? We did not choose our parents, where we are born or our own salvation. Adam had no choice because God's will is greater than little Adam.