The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

I have explained all this in detail previously on other threads that you have been on, so I don't know why you cling to the common erroneous view that most people have. The word for "torment" that appears in the verse of Rev.20:10 is the same word that refers to JAILERS in the scriptures, and means something that HINDERS a ship or a person from going or doing what they want to do. "Torment" that the Devil will experience is DEATH. That will HINDER him from doing ANYTHING. Now do you get the sense of it?

Yes, he will be imprisoned and hindered for all eternity.

Why then do you continue to say he will die?

[myth-one.com]

Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

Prior to Jesus coming to the earth, there was no Jesus.

So you are disagreeing with Jesus himself. He prayed to his God and Father:

"Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory that I had with you before the world was." (John 17:5, NASB)


P.S. I didn't mean to have posted so many of my previous post.

Jesus the man, prayed to God the Father, to glorify Him again with the spiritual body He had as the Word from the beginning.

That is, return things to the way they were.

I don't disagree with that.

[onewithhim]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

I have explained all this in detail previously on other threads that you have been on, so I don't know why you cling to the common erroneous view that most people have. The word for "torment" that appears in the verse of Rev.20:10 is the same word that refers to JAILERS in the scriptures, and means something that HINDERS a ship or a person from going or doing what they want to do. "Torment" that the Devil will experience is DEATH. That will HINDER him from doing ANYTHING. Now do you get the sense of it?

Yes, he will be imprisoned and hindered for all eternity.

Why then do you continue to say he will die?

Why do YOU continue to say that he WON'T die??? The lake of fire SYMBOLIZES death---total destruction. There is no life in death. The lake of fire is a metaphor for complete destruction.

Did you notice that DEATH AND HADES are thrown into the lake of fire? Are they consciously being "tormented"? Explain please.

[onewithhim]

Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

Prior to Jesus coming to the earth, there was no Jesus.

So you are disagreeing with Jesus himself. He prayed to his God and Father:

"Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory that I had with you before the world was." (John 17:5, NASB)


P.S. I didn't mean to have posted so many of my previous post.

Jesus the man, prayed to God the Father, to glorify Him again with the spiritual body He had as the Word from the beginning.

That is, return things to the way they were.

I don't disagree with that.

Jesus said "before the world was." What did he mean by that? He had glory with the Father "before the world was." Explain please.

[myth-one.com]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

I have explained all this in detail previously on other threads that you have been on, so I don't know why you cling to the common erroneous view that most people have. The word for "torment" that appears in the verse of Rev.20:10 is the same word that refers to JAILERS in the scriptures, and means something that HINDERS a ship or a person from going or doing what they want to do. "Torment" that the Devil will experience is DEATH. That will HINDER him from doing ANYTHING. Now do you get the sense of it?

Yes, he will be imprisoned and hindered for all eternity.

Why then do you continue to say he will die?

Why do YOU continue to say that he WON'T die??? The lake of fire SYMBOLIZES death---total destruction. There is no life in death. The lake of fire is a metaphor for complete destruction.

Did you notice that DEATH AND HADES are thrown into the lake of fire? Are they consciously being "tormented"? Explain please.

Why do you keep repeating yourself?

The lake of fire SYMBOLIZES death---total destruction. There is no life in death. The lake of fire is a metaphor for complete destruction.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

I'll go with the Bible's explanation.

[myth-one.com]

Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

Prior to Jesus coming to the earth, there was no Jesus.

So you are disagreeing with Jesus himself. He prayed to his God and Father:

"Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory that I had with you before the world was." (John 17:5, NASB)


P.S. I didn't mean to have posted so many of my previous post.

Jesus the man, prayed to God the Father, to glorify Him again with the spiritual body He had as the Word from the beginning.

That is, return things to the way they were.

I don't disagree with that.

Jesus said "before the world was." What did he mean by that? He had glory with the Father "before the world was." Explain please.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and the Word existed in the beginning, before the world existed.

Jesus came into existence about 2017 years ago.

[Checkpoint]

Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

Prior to Jesus coming to the earth, there was no Jesus.

So you are disagreeing with Jesus himself. He prayed to his God and Father:

"Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory that I had with you before the world was." (John 17:5, NASB)


P.S. I didn't mean to have posted so many of my previous post.

Jesus the man, prayed to God the Father, to glorify Him again with the spiritual body He had as the Word from the beginning.

That is, return things to the way they were.

I don't disagree with that.

Jesus said "before the world was." What did he mean by that? He had glory with the Father "before the world was." Explain please.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and the Word existed in the beginning, before the world existed.

Jesus came into existence about 2017 years ago.

This raises, for me at least, the question of just what John intended to say and convey by using "The Logos" in John 1 the way he did.

Is it correct to say "Jesus was the Word made flesh", or to say "The Word became flesh as Jesus"?

[myth-one.com]

Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

Prior to Jesus coming to the earth, there was no Jesus.

So you are disagreeing with Jesus himself. He prayed to his God and Father:

"Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory that I had with you before the world was." (John 17:5, NASB)


P.S. I didn't mean to have posted so many of my previous post.

Jesus the man, prayed to God the Father, to glorify Him again with the spiritual body He had as the Word from the beginning.

That is, return things to the way they were.

I don't disagree with that.

Jesus said "before the world was." What did he mean by that? He had glory with the Father "before the world was." Explain please.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and the Word existed in the beginning, before the world existed.

Jesus came into existence about 2017 years ago.

This raises, for me at least, the question of just what John intended to say and convey by using "The Logos" in John 1 the way he did.

Is it correct to say "Jesus was the Word made flesh", or to say "The Word became flesh as Jesus"?

Immortality cannot take on mortality.

The Word cannot die.

Jesus was the Word made flesh for the specific purpose of dying:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus was born of Mary.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Jesus was born of the flesh as a man.

Jesus was the Word made flesh.

Man cannot understand how this could have been done.

The Word existed as a spirit at the same time that Jesus existed as a man.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 402 by myth-one.com]

Checkpoint wrote

This raises, for me at least, the question of just what John intended to say and convey by using "The Logos" in John 1 the way he did.

Is it correct to say "Jesus was the Word made flesh", or to say "The Word became flesh as Jesus"?

You wrote

Immortality cannot take on mortality.

The Word cannot die.

Right on both counts, but John does not say either happened, as such.

You added

Jesus was the Word made flesh for the specific purpose of dying:

Quote:
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

The Word became flesh as Jesus.

You continued

Jesus was born of Mary.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh:

Quote:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Jesus was born of the flesh as a man.

Jesus was the Word made flesh.

No, the Word became flesh, as Jesus.

You concluded

Man cannot understand how this could have been done.

The Word existed as a spirit at the same time that Jesus existed as a man.

I suggest our problem is we do not get what John was trying to tell us about what did happen. So we know only in part.

John does not say the Word "existed as a spirit" after becoming flesh.[/b]

[myth-one.com]

Jesus was the Word made flesh for the specific purpose of dying:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

No, the Word became flesh, as Jesus.

"Jesus was made flesh" in 53 of the 56 translations provided at biblegateway.com!

Jesus was born of Mary.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Jesus was born of the flesh as a man.

Jesus was the Word made flesh.

Once one gains immortality, death no longer applies to them:

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The Word existed as a spiritual bodied being from the beginning.

It impossible that the immortal Word became flesh and died!

The Word was made flesh as Jesus in parallel with His separate spiritual body, and Jesus died.

We cannot understand how this was accomplished because it is not of our physical world.

It will remain a mystery to us until we join the spiritual world:

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.