The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

They will die, but they will not spend any time resting or sleeping in a tomb or coffin.

So those that go to meet Jesus in the air actually die too? They don't just change their bodies they die?

Are their physical bodies alive after they become spirits?

I don't know, they're your beliefs not mine ... what did you mean by "they will die"?

Spiritual bodies do not mix with physical bodies.

If the physical body isn't alive, it's dead.

See how easy that was?

[myth-one.com]

#Indeed don't you think its fair to say that, since for 2,000 years people have at least had the chance to gain enlightenment from God and a bible understanding, that the 1000 year rule of Christ will be a good deal more horrific than life is now,. There will be zero chance to understand scripture and no human represeentatives of the True God on the planet.

Mankind will wallow in total spiritual darkness for 1000 years, thank to Jesus' rule. Is there anything I'm missing?

Can it get any worse?

Thanks to "your Jesus", we have but to wait until the "glorious" 1000 year rule of spiritual darkness you attribute to be the millenium, to find out.

That's progress!!

We agree that the Millennium will be glorious!!

No takes back!

[myth-one.com]

Those whose names are written in the book of life will be killed and will be born again as spiritual bodied beings into the Kingdom of God.

That's totally wrong.

They will be changed!

Well I think the picture you've painted is clear; I've heard more than enough.

Crystal clear? You still don't seem to understand being "changed" versus being "killed."

Thanks

My Pleasure!

Glad to help you.

God Bless!!

[myth-one.com]

Well I think the picture you've painted is clear; I've heard more than enough.

Thanks

Here is a verse to go along with your picture:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:21-22)

Actually, Jesus will return like a super hero to save the earth from destroying itself!

[polonius]

Well I think the picture you've painted is clear; I've heard more than enough.

Thanks

Here is a verse to go along with your picture:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:21-22)

Actually, Jesus will return like a super hero to save the earth from destroying itself!

QUESTION: What is the basis of your claim, if any?

[myth-one.com]

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:21-22)

Actually, Jesus will return like a super hero to save the earth from destroying itself!


QUESTION: What is the basis of your claim, if any?

The earth will reach a state of great tribulation, and if not shortened all flesh will be destroyed. JW provided us with a image of what this might look like.

Thus, Jesus returns like a super hero to save the world pictured by JW from itself.

He doesn't return to cause any further harm.

[onewithhim]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.

I will reply to one of your starting points at a time. I'll say this initially---I agree with your conclusion that the fate of non-believers is true death, being no more. NOT a non-dead state, living in agony forever.

I agree that there are two body types, natural/physical and spiritual. I disagree with your assessment that "spiritual bodies are immortal, and natural bodies will perish." First of all, natural bodies were created to live forever, and Adam died only because he rebelled. Our physical bodies now die, but the Bible promise is that we can regain what Adam lost, and thus live forever in physical bodies. Secondly, spirit beings CAN die, as in the case of the Devil and his angels, who are going to be annihilated. They will be "cast into the lake of fire," which means death, and death as we understand it in our present everyday lives. No more life. So spirit bodies are not immortal. Any angel could do today what Satan (not his original name) did in the past---rebel against God and try to get glory for himself, and thus end up with judgment on himself to die. It is not scripturally factual that to die doesn't mean actual death, but individuals go on, somewhere, still alive. "Death" means the cessation of life. No consciousness. It was men's thinking that followed the Devil's lead and accepted the idea that we "don't really die." (Genesis 3:4)



(Don't know why some of my post is in enlarged letters. BTW, your "Scriptural proof" is not correct. For one thing, citing Genesis 3:4 as proof that there are spirit bodies blows my mind; that was Satan's original LIE! We know that there are spirit individuals from many other scriptures.)

[onewithhim]

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

The correct doctrine from the Bible is that the "Lake of fire" is a place of cleaning and purification.

No one goes to any place of torment, and the real torment is here and now in this evil lifetime.

See here:
" If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. " 1 Corinthians 3:15

The sins are burned while the sinners get saved.

As such every person gets saved and not even one (1) gets left out or lost.

As to the second death - the Apostle Paul declares that to be death to sin, see "dead to sin" Romans 6:2-11

Some few people die to sin in this lifetime, while most people have the second death (death to sin) later at the time of Judgment.

It is a great plan of eternal salvation for all.

No, the lake of fire is a place of complete destruction. That is why the Bible says that "death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire." Will "death" be purified? Will Hades be cleaned? How about the idea that death and Hades will be completely destroyed....totally obliterated? No more death! THAT is what the lake of fire symbolizes. (Rev.20:14)

The 144,00 are said to ESCAPE the "second death." It is a good thin to escape it. Now, aren't those people now imperfect and make mistakes? Wouldn't they need cleansing and purifying? But they DO NOT enter into the lake of fire or, the second death. Why? Because it means destruction forever.

Revelation 20:6

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by myth-one.com]

Nice work: I admire the effort you have put into your presentation. Kudos.

Are you sure #3 every human will be resurrected? What about those condemned by Jesus, like Judas?

It sounds like you clicked on #3 above and saw the "Biblical Proof" for that claim.

Not sure I could add much. There are three resurrections of importance mentioned in the Bible -- that of Jesus, that of believers at the Second Coming, and that of nonbelievers a thousand years after the Second Coming. That includes every human who ever lived -- including Judas.

Why is Judas any more condemned than anyone else? We have all sinned, and all of us are condemned to the second death.

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Judas did repent and made some amends by giving the silver back. He also sinned against someone who is very "big" on forgiveness!

Thanks for the nice comment & the "like."

Hope you click on the other links and have other questions and/or suggestions for improvements.

No, all of us are not condemned to the second death. That is for degenerate, irreconcilable individuals who will never be turned to righteousness of their own free will. Like Satan and his demons. Like some humans, the identities of which no ones knows with absolute surety except Jehovah.

The first death is the death all humans have been consigned to because of being descended from Adam, and for which Jesus gave up his own human life. Those who undergo the second death are not covered by Jesus' blood. Willful, deliberate sins are the type of sins that God will not forgive. They are the type of sins that John speaks of in his first letter (I John 5:16,17). "There is a sin leading to death..." (verse 16b).

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 40 by myth-one.com]

"New Jerusalem" is not a literal city, but is the "body of Christ," and "the bride of Christ," his co-rulers. So how can Jesus take his literal seat in New Jerusalem?

And you quoted Paul in saying that the co-rulers will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air, and "so shall we ever be with the Lord." It looks to me like they will "ever" be in the spirit realm, "up" in heaven, with Christ. He is saying, is he not, that "we will be 'up' with Jesus in heaven forever." His coming to earth literally with his co-rulers is as literal as the wild beast coming out of the sea with 7 heads! Come on!

Where it says that the co-rulers will reign with Christ "on" the earth.....that word "on" could also mean "over," as scholars bring out, and doesn't really designate a PLACE where Jesus will rule. It refers to what ENCOMPASSES his rule.

The Prayers of the Saints
"They sing a new canticle, saying, 'Worthy art thou [Christ] to take the scroll and to open its seals; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us for God with thy blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth.'" (The Apocalypse 5:9,10, Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible)

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