The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[onewithhim]

Therefore, there was no fault in the first testament.

I was simply the messenger on that claim.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

You'll have to debate God on that issue.

He inspired it to be written.

Paul simply meant that if the first covenant had been complete in every respect, then the second would have been unnecessary. The first was not complete because the Lamb of God that would actually take away sins had not appeared yet.

Well, in Hebrews, Paul wrote that the first covenant was not faultless.

That means it had a fault!

Once again, I'll have to side with the scriptures.

Yeah, if the first covenant had been complete in every respect, it would have been faultless. So?

There would have been no need for the Lamb of God if there were no sins to be taken away.

There were sins to be taken away on every human because the wages of sin was death, and every human sinned! Thus no one ever gained everlasting life under that covenant.

The fault was with mankind.

I really don't understand where you're coming from. I think all of your objections have been addressed, and there isn't anything more that I can see that's worth debating.

[onewithhim]

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that spirit beings are not immortal.

Haven't we been through this before?

God is a Spirit:

When is God going to die?

To be immortal means that one will never die. It is clear from the scriptures that Jesus was the ONLY immortal individual (besides Jehovah) in the universe at the time that Paul wrote to Timothy. Our Lord Jesus Christ "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16, NASB)

Jesus was never immortal. If Jesus was immortal, He could never have fulfilled His purpose of dying.

Yes we have been through this before, and I assumed, falsely it appears, that you understood that Jesus was not immortal until he proved that he would remain faithful to Jehovah.

Why do you boldly contradict the scripture that states plainly that Jesus is now immortal? You apparently didn't read my entire post, because I said that Jesus attained to immortality AFTER he died and was resurrected! Hello.

You are confusing Jesus with The Word.

Jesus was a human, and died.

God alone has full immortality, from eternity to eternity.

Jesus rose from the dead with derived immortality. He died once, but will never die again.

Derived immortality is conditional immortality, and is only given by God to those who seek it and find it. It is called "eternal life".

Romans 2:

6 He will render to each one according to his works:

7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life;

8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
11 For God shows no partiality.

Jesus rose from the grave as a man:

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Man is known to be mortal.

If after that point, Jesus accepted His "conditional immortality" for living a righteous (sinless) human life, then mankind has no Savior.

That is, He cannot accept it unto Himself and also give it away to those who believe in Him.

Isn't that a problem?

Nope. Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18) Luke 24:39 shows him merely assuring the disciples that he was not an apparition or a vision.

Why you would say that mankind has no Savior after what Jesus did for us---sacrificing his physical human life for all of our sins---I cannot understand.

I don't see any problem, and I hope that you can figure out whatever questions you still have.

[onewithhim]

(oblique reference to Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you (goats) who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Their life of perishing however lasts forever, Matt 25:46.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

"Everlasting" refers to the fire, not the amount of time those cast into the fire will require to perish!

"Life of perishing lasting forever" is another oxymoron.

If they are tortured forever in the fire, they never perish.

Those on the left will depart into the everlasting fire.

So the fire is said to last forever.

That's all that is said. Big deal.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What is the punishment stated in the following verses?:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   (Romans 6:23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Looks like the punishment is death or perishing to me. And yes, they will never live again. So the punishment of death is an everlasting punishment!

The only being which is specifically stated to be tormented eternally in the lake of fire is the devil:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

That is why the lake of fire is everlasting!

Since it's only prisoner lives forever, his prison must last forever also.

The devil cannot be killed because he is a spirit. The fire and brimstone are not for him, but are there to kill humans which shall be cast into hell and suffer their second death. It is the devil who will be tormented day and night for eternity, not the mythical souls of nonbelievers! This cannot be physical torture since the devil's spiritual body does not feel pain. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity.

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation. Your nonsense that spirits can't be killed is getting tiresome because you have been rebutted on that. Yet you continue on, as if no one ever explained too you that spirits are not immortal. Where did you get that erroneous idea?

You talk about humans being "cast into hell" which you equate with the lake of fire, right? Then why does it say that HELL IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE? If you believe that it is saying that hell is cast into hell, explain how that is possible.

[myth-one.com]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

Onewithhim claims: The Devil doesn't live forever.

God claims: The devil shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I'll have to agree with God.

Your nonsense that spirits can't be killed is getting tiresome because you have been rebutted on that. Yet you continue on, as if no one ever explained too you that spirits are not immortal.

Simple blind repetition proves nothing.

No one has ever successfully rebutted that the difference between God and man is body type -- natural versus spiritual, and the natural body is mortal and the spiritual body is immortal.

Repetition without proof proves only that you can repeat things.

Where did you get that erroneous idea?

From the scriptures.

You talk about humans being "cast into hell" which you equate with the lake of fire, right?

Nonbelieving people will be cast into the lake of fire and quickly suffer their "second death."

Then why does it say that HELL IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE? If you believe that it is saying that hell is cast into hell, explain how that is possible.

Here it is again:

After all humans have been judged and either been born again as spirits or killed in the lake of fire described as the second death, there is no longer any need for the concept of death. At this point, everyone in existence is a spiritual body which will live forever. Any former humans still alive, exist as spirits. We have now truly become equal unto the angels.

The word hell used in Revelation 20:14 is better translated into English as grave. Since death is no longer a valid concept, there is no longer any need for a grave. Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both cast into the lake of fire and destroyed:

And death and hell (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14)

If the extension of life from a maximum of one hundred and twenty years to eternity is our goal, then death is our enemy because death terminates life. Now that every being is an immortal spiritual body, death has been totally defeated. There will be no more death! Death and the grave are thus cast into the lake of fire and destroyed as prophesied:

The last enemy that shall be defeated is death. (I Corinthians 15:26)

=====================================================================

I do not equate hell with the lake of fire. There is a lake of fire and there is hell.

Four words were translated from the original scriptures as hell in the King James Version of the Bible. They are:

Hades and Sheol - The Hebrew word sheol in the Old Testament corresponds to the Greek word Hades in the New Testament. Both mean the underworld abode of the dead.

Gehenna - This Greek word referred to the garbage dump in the valley of Hinnon outside of Jerusalem. Fires were maintained constantly in the dump to burn garbage and prevent disease. Thus the association of Gehenna hell with everlasting fire.

Tartaroo - This Greek word is found only once in the Bible in 2 Peter 2:4. It means to throw into or imprison in Tartarus. Tartarus was thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was administered upon fallen angels:

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartaroo), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (II Peter 2:4)

If these four words refer to hell, one might assume that in all occurrences they would be translated as hell. That is not the case. Sheol for example, is translated thirty-one times as "hell," thirty-one times as "grave," and three times as "pit" in the King James Version of the Bible. Therefore, it is obvious that the translators allowed their understanding of the context in which the original words were used to sway their word selection in the translated version.

The lake of fire is equated with the "second death" when referring to humans.

It is a place of imprisonment when applied to spirits.

[myth-one.com]

Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

Prior to Jesus coming to the earth, there was no Jesus.

This is an example of your confusing Jesus with the Word.

In the beginning was the Word.

Jesus originated on the earth when born as a human on the earth.

Luke 24:39 shows him merely assuring the disciples that he was not an apparition or a vision.

Yes, He assured them He was not a spirit by proving He was a man like them.

Why you would say that mankind has no Savior after what Jesus did for us---sacrificing his physical human life for all of our sins---I cannot understand.

Of course I never said that!

I said if Jesus accepted His just reward of everlasting life which He gained by living a sinless human life -- then we would not have a Savior.

He cannot accept it and give it away. He can only do one or the other.

When you claim that Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a spiritual bodied being, what was the source of that spiritual being?

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The Word already existed at this time. Was Jesus resurrected as the existing Word, or was a new spirit created and "born" for Him?

I don't see any problem, . . .

Scary.

[onewithhim]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

I have explained all this in detail previously on other threads that you have been on, so I don't know why you cling to the common erroneous view that most people have. The word for "torment" that appears in the verse of Rev.20:10 is the same word that refers to JAILERS in the scriptures, and means something that HINDERS a ship or a person from going or doing what they want to do. "Torment" that the Devil will experience is DEATH. That will HINDER him from doing ANYTHING. Now do you get the sense of it?

[onewithhim]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

I have explained all this in detail previously on other threads that you have been on, so I don't know why you cling to the common erroneous view that most people have. The word for "torment" that appears in the verse of Rev.20:10 is the same word that refers to JAILERS in the scriptures, and means something that HINDERS a ship or a person from going or doing what they want to do. "Torment" that the Devil will experience is DEATH. That will HINDER him from doing ANYTHING. Now do you get the sense of it?

[onewithhim]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

I have explained all this in detail previously on other threads that you have been on, so I don't know why you cling to the common erroneous view that most people have. The word for "torment" that appears in the verse of Rev.20:10 is the same word that refers to JAILERS in the scriptures, and means something that HINDERS a ship or a person from going or doing what they want to do. "Torment" that the Devil will experience is DEATH. That will HINDER him from doing ANYTHING. Now do you get the sense of it?

[onewithhim]

The Devil doesn't live forever. His PUNISHMENT lasts forever---that is, his DEATH. The lake of fire is a METAPHOR for death---complete annihilation.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

How can the devil be tormented day and night forever and ever if he does not live forever and ever? The lake of fire is his prison.

I have explained all this in detail previously on other threads that you have been on, so I don't know why you cling to the common erroneous view that most people have. The word for "torment" that appears in the verse of Rev.20:10 is the same word that refers to JAILERS in the scriptures, and means something that HINDERS a ship or a person from going or doing what they want to do. "Torment" that the Devil will experience is DEATH. That will HINDER him from doing ANYTHING. Now do you get the sense of it?

[onewithhim]

Jesus rose from the grave as a spirit being, as he had been previous to coming to Earth. (I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:18)

Prior to Jesus coming to the earth, there was no Jesus.

So you are disagreeing with Jesus himself. He prayed to his God and Father:

"Now, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory that I had with you before the world was." (John 17:5, NASB)


P.S. I didn't mean to have posted so many of my previous post.