"I can defend the Bible" Can you?

[polonius]

JP Cusick posted:

I can defend the Bible, but Christianity needs to be given excuses.

On beginning this thread, I'd like to gather some opinions on the accuracy of the bible which some claim can be "defended."

I don't want to create a survey, but do some posters have reasoned arguments for or against defense of the Bible that they are willing to share?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

I have yet to find anything in the bible that is inaccurate. I cannot argue a negative but I can positively say that everything in the bible is in my opinion absolutely truthful.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


Full list of JW beliefs: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... s-beliefs/



RELATED POSTS

How should the bible be classified?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 473#800473

Does the bible contain scribal (copyist) errors?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 986#796986

[JP Cusick]

JP Cusick posted:

I can defend the Bible, but Christianity needs to be given excuses.

On beginning this thread, I'd like to gather some opinions on the accuracy of the bible which some claim can be "defended."

I don't want to create a survey, but do some posters have reasoned arguments for or against defense of the Bible that they are willing to share?

I concede that most of the Bible is untrue or twisted or inaccurate, and many translations or interpretations of the Bible are wrong, but I find that the Bible tells us in several places that God Himself does not want common people to understand the message because people can misuse the knowledge for evil purposes.

As like here in Genesis 3:
24 So he drove out the man;
and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims,
and a flaming sword which turned every way,
to keep the way of the tree of life. KJV

Deuteronomy 29:
4 Yet the Father hath not given you an heart to perceive,
and eyes to see, and ears to hear,
unto this day.

And Jesus said in parables that most people get shut out = Matthew 13:13-17

As such we must decipher and search for the deepest messages in the scriptures, and even then we must make our self open to be enlightened.

[polonius]

I have yet to find anything in the bible that is inaccurate. I cannot argue a negative but I can positively say that everything in the bible is in my opinion absolutely truthful.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

RESPONSE: Keep in mind, in the case of contradictions, one claim must be incorrect.


For example:

Matthew 8:5 -7
5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.� 7 And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.� 8 The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed.

Or

Luke 7:2-7
A centurion there had a slave whom he valued highly, and who was ill and close to death. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders to him, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to Jesus, they appealed to him earnestly, saying, “He is worthy of having you do this for him, 5 for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us.� 6 And Jesus went with them, but when he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to say to him, “Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; 7 therefore I did not presume to come to you.

Acts 9:7 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one.

Or

Acts 22:9 9 Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.

Matthew 21-7
Jesus sent for and rode two animals (them) during his entry into Jerusalem to fulfill a prophecy.

Or

Mark 11:7, Luke 19:35, and John 12:14 Jesus send for and rides only one animal (it) when entering Jerusalem.

Perhaps when you read the Bible you would want to pay closer attention to details and correct your opinion to correspond with the facts claimed.

[polonius]

JP Cusick posted:

I concede that most of the Bible is untrue or twisted or inaccurate, and many translations or interpretations of the Bible are wrong, but I find that the Bible tells us in several places that God Himself does not want common people to understand the message because people can misuse the knowledge for evil purposes.

RESPONSE: So are you saying that God wants to deceive us?

[JehovahsWitness]

Acts 9:7 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one.

Or

Acts 22:9 9 Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.

Did Pauls attendants hear Jesus voice?

At Acts 9:7, the account states that the men with Saul heard “a voice [“sound,� Da, Ro, ftns].� Here the Greek word pho·nes′, the genitive case of pho·ne′, is used, with the sense of ‘hearing of the voice.’ This allows for the meaning that the men heard only the sound of the voice, but did not understand. When Paul later related the experience, he said that the men “did not hear the voice of the one speaking.� (Ac 22:9) In this account the accusative (objective) case pho·nen′ is used. This can give the sense that, although the sound registered on their ears, they did not hear the voice as being distinct words that they understood as did Saul, to whom Christ was speaking.

Source: Bible Encyclopedia Insight on the Scripture Vol II p. 1161

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 21-7
Jesus sent for and rode two animals (them) during his entry into Jerusalem to fulfill a prophecy.

Or

Mark 11:7, Luke 19:35, and John 12:14 Jesus send for and rides only one animal (it) when entering Jerusalem.

How many donkeys during Jesus ride into Jerusalem?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 416#778416

"Them" the clothes or the donkeys?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 704#867704

Did Jesus attempt to sit (spead eagle) across two donkeys, riding them both at the same time?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 297#837297

Is an omission the same as a contradiction?(One or Two Donkeys)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 939#866939

[JP Cusick]

JP Cusick posted:

I concede that most of the Bible is untrue or twisted or inaccurate, and many translations or interpretations of the Bible are wrong, but I find that the Bible tells us in several places that God Himself does not want common people to understand the message because people can misuse the knowledge for evil purposes.

RESPONSE: So are you saying that God wants to deceive us?

God withholds information - and that is not deception.

There are people who use the Bible to deceive others - but that is not God doing the deception.

The scriptures directly say that = God can not lie.

So deception would be a lie and thereby deception is forbidden for God.

It is not just wrong but also dangerous to give power to an infidel or to a wilful sinner, and the word of God includes fantastic powers, so it is only given to those people who will use it properly.

And I even did this once with a friend as I gave him some important insight which I knew from my studies, and I heard later how he went straight out and misused my information as a weapon against another person.

So I too learned my lesson - that we do not take meat for the children of God and cast it before dogs.

[polonius]

Matthew 21-7
Jesus sent for and rode two animals (them) during his entry into Jerusalem to fulfill a prophecy.



Or

Mark 11:7, Luke 19:35, and John 12:14 Jesus send for and rides only one animal (it) when entering Jerusalem.

How many donkeys during Jesus ride into Jerusalem?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 416#778416

RESPONSE: According to Matthew 2 animals ("them") so he could claim an OT prophecy fulfillment. As in

Matthew: This took place to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet, saying,

“Tell the daughter of Zion,
Look, your king is coming to you,
humble, and mounted on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.�


But Zechariah 9:9 reads

9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew added the word "and" It is not in the prophecy he quoted (another error)

"Them" the clothes or the donkeys?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 704#867704

RESPONSE: Obviously the donkeys. Why would Jesus send out for clothes?

Did Jesus attempt to sit (spead eagle) across two donkeys, riding them both at the same time?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 297#837297

RESPONSE: If you believe Matthew's gospel, that's exactly what Jesus did. Do you believe Matthew's account and not the others? Obviously a contradiction in which one element must be in error.

Is an omission the same as a contradiction?(One or Two Donkeys)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 939#866939

RESPONSE: Often. If some person says one robber, and others omit that essential detail, then the omission is indeed a contradiction. As in "I saw two men rob the bank" or "I saw one man rob the bank." One version is in error.

[JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 8:5 -7
5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him

Luke 7:2-7
A centurion there had a slave whom he valued highly, and who was ill and close to death. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders to him, asking him to come and heal his slave.

QUESTION: Who asked Jesus about the centurion's slave?

It is not unusual in language to speak of a thought or idea or message as coming from its originator even though it was conveyed by an intermediary. Sometimess we mention those that convey or carry the message other times not.

Let's take a look at some examples:

A woman might say: "My husband just sent me a dozen roses!" When in fact the woman's husband didn't send them, he went into a shop and told the florist to send them. So did the husband send them or did the florist send them?

Another example, we might say: "my boss just wrote me" when in actual fact his secretary wrote and delivered the letter. So who actually performed the verb (to write)? The boss or the secretary? Both are correct depending on whether we are going to refer only to who originated or made the writing possible (the boss) or who performed the act under the direction of the boss (the secretary).

In both cases failing to mention whose idea is being conveyed might be misleading but even then not necessarily a contradiction.

Since both Matthew and Luke mention the same originator of the message (the centurian) and the destinator (Jesus) but Luke mentions who transmited the message while Matthew doesn't, we don't have a contradiction, it is simply a case of not mentioning all relevant details. A contradition only exists if both its parts cannot possibly be true, so if there is a legitimate way to understand the statements that can render them both true, there is no contradiction:

MATTHEW: Since the centurian did indeed "come to"* (as in approached) Jesus (albeit through unmentioned intermediaries) the first statement is true.

LUKE: And if the centurian "came to" (or approached) Jesus through his envoys the second statement can also true.

* "There came unto him; i.e. by messengers" - The Pulpit Commentary

The only way to create a real contradiction would be for Matthew to state catagorically that the centurian sent no envoys.


JW