Bad Theology and Salvation

[liamconnor]

this thread was provoked by Elijah JOhn's stimulating question on why the Trinity was not a focus of Jesus' (and I add, any of the N.T. authors) if it is so important.

I commented there that the N.T. authors did not think salvation came through belief in the Trinity.

But this raises a question which deserves its own thread.


Suppose a person believes that Jesus' death atones for sins; that Jesus is God's chosen King/Messiah/Christ of the world. But...

This person does NOT believe that he is God (i.e. denies Trinity) though Jesus actually IS God (reality has it that God is Triune)

(or)

The person DOES believe God is Triune; but God in fact is NOT triune (Jesus is not God).


Can either person be "saved"?

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 28 by Divine Insight]

However, if the truth of reality is that our existence is temporary and we simply cease to exist when we die, I can't accept that. That, to me, is nothing to fear or even remotely worry about.

I have no trouble accepting reality as it is.

Because if this was the case - only this life - then I would prefer not to have been born at all.

At the moment people can live whit all the terrible things that are going on. Because most people on earth has hope of seeing there loveones again. Take that hope away from people and shit will happen.

Lets say a child is about to being tortered and killed and therefore needs your help.

What will you do?

How far would you go to save your child?

At the moment people are being hold back from taking drastic steps. But lets not fool ourself. The moment there is no hope of seeing our loveones again. That they no longer exist. Then we will be faced whit another reality.

Think about it...

How many cases of tortered people can we stand to watch before we say...enough is enough?

Why do we put up whit these things?

The gods can sit on their thrones and wait for us to change...do we have the same luxury? Can we wait for people to change? Are we gods?

If there are no gods, then what are we waiting for? A miracle? Tomorrow the world will be a better place? Maybe for you, but what about me? That is not your responsibility?

At the moment people are being tortered and killed and we are sitting here talking about doing the right thing...but what is the right thing to do? What can we do? We could blow the world apart and die whit a smile on our faces...because then we would have saved a lot of people from being tortered. We did not save them from death. That was not in our power. But we did save them from being tortered and killed by a maniac. And that is not so bad a deal. If we are going to die anyway then why not die knowing that we saved a lot of people from horrible things?

On the other hand...if we are eternal beings...then we can say...someday the world will be a better place for everybody.

What options do we have?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 41 by Waterfall]

All of your concerns are answered in Buddhism.

None of them are answered in Christianity.

Therefore, if you are going to turn to a spiritual philosophy Buddhism would be the better choice anyway.

In fact, according to Jesus many will go the way of "everlasting punishment".

So in other words, if you go to the Christian Heaven there will be many more people suffering in eternal torment in the Christian hell. So how is that much different from the situation you just described here on earth?

The only difference seems to be that Christians simply won't care about the people who are being tortured in hell for eternity because they somehow see this as being "justified".

As far as accepting that life might be nothing more than secular materialism I can only say that if you are disappointed in this reality, they you must also necessarily be disappointed in "God's Creation" if there is a God.

Apparently the only thing that would correct this situation for you is if after this life is over you are offered a wonderful paradise where there are no problems and there is no longer anything to complain about. Is that a fair summary?

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 42 by Divine Insight]

Hi DI

I do not believe in everlasting punishment.

Why should I turn to buddhism?

To me heaven is a place where we all are living in peace whit each other.

Is the door closed to anybody?

Don't we have to believe there is a door and that it is open for us?

What else is there to believe?

Do we have to knock on the door in a special way? Or say mysterious things? Sim sala bim?

Maybe the door will open if we tell a good joke

At the moment I am for this story of creation.

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

In this story God did not create this world of fighting and death.

The only thing God has done is to connect a soul to a monkey.

Was that a terrible thing to do?

Is it a coincidence that consciousness has choosen this body as a vehicle?

Of course it could be fun to have the body of an dolphin.

But only for a short period of time.

Whit regard to (only) being a temporary body then yes...that is not something that I would like to be the case.

Because that would be the end for me and everybody else.

Who would not give up their life (1,2,3,4,5,6,7 second on earth) to save somebody from being tortered and killed? You might say...not for him/her...but what about him/her?

How can we go on whitout a soul/heart?

Are there any problems in heaven? Anything to complain about? What should that be?

[Divine Insight]

I do not believe in everlasting punishment.

In that case you either don't believe in Jesus, or you simply don't believe that the Christian Gospels correctly convey what Jesus supposedly taught. But if that's the case then where would you find the truth of what Jesus supposedly taught?

Why should I turn to buddhism?

I'm not suggesting that you should. I simply pointed out that Buddhism addresses the concerns you appear to have in your post #41.

To me heaven is a place where we all are living in peace whit each other.

That's a nice dream, but where is there any evidence that such an imagined place actually exists?

Is the door closed to anybody?

Don't we have to believe there is a door and that it is open for us?

Before we start talking about a door to an imaginary place shouldn't we first produce evidence that the place exists?

What else is there to believe?

Why do we need to believe in anything that we can't actually know?

Do we have to knock on the door in a special way? Or say mysterious things? Sim sala bim?

Maybe the door will open if we tell a good joke

We can also ask what we might do to please Santa Claus so he will be sure to bring us gifts next December. Do you think that might help?

At the moment I am for this story of creation.

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

In this story God did not create this world of fighting and death.

The only thing God has done is to connect a soul to a monkey.

Was that a terrible thing to do?

I have favorite fairy tales too. That doesn't make them true.

Is it a coincidence that consciousness has choosen this body as a vehicle?

As far as I am aware both my cats are also conscious as well as the wildlife that often visit my yard.

Whit regard to (only) being a temporary body then yes...that is not something that I would like to be the case.

Because that would be the end for me and everybody else.

So you feel that reality has to be as you like? I think it would be great if reality would be as I perfer too. But I see no reason to think that this should be the case. In fact, the idea that the universe would cater to my personal wants is a pretty self-centric ideology isn't it?

In fact, if the universe was going to cater to my personal wants why isn't it doing this already?

Who would not give up their life (1,2,3,4,5,6,7 second on earth) to save somebody from being tortered and killed? You might say...not for him/her...but what about him/her?

Some people are more willing to give up their life for a good cause than others. All humans are clearly not the same in how they think or what they might be willing to do or sacrifice.

How can we go on whitout a soul/heart?

You'll need to define your terms. I certainly have a heart as I wouldn't be alive without one. And I play the saxophone so I probably have a little "soul" too.

Are there any problems in heaven? Anything to complain about? What should that be?

Again, you'll need to define what you mean by "heaven". Are you using this term to simply represent your own personal imaginary paradise? Or are you using the term to refer to the heaven described in a specific religious doctrine. Keep in mind that in the Biblical Heaven Satan along with a bunch of angels apparently weren't very happy as they supposedly rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven.

So apparently there are not only problems in heaven be even actual wars. As the rumors God Satan won over a full third of God's angels before being cast out of heaven. I always wonder if he had won over two-thirds of God's angels would that have meant the Satan would have won the war against God?

Does God's power and authority over reality depend on how many angels he has in his army?

Interesting questions don't you think?

None the less, in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, heaven cannot be a perfect paradise, for if it were then Satan could have never become corrupt and have been cast out. So apparently there is a problem with the Biblical "Heaven".

Hopefully if you are imagining your own personal imaginary "heaven" you can do better than the people who made up the Bible.

Still though the question remains: If the idea is to live for eternity in a perfect heaven then what are you doing here? Why didn't the creator just create a perfect heaven and be done with it? Why bother creating this disgusting universe that not too many people seem to like very much? What would be the point to that?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 41 by Waterfall]

I don't know if I agree on the point that people will do terrible things if they have not hope. God created us with a consciense that stops most people from doing terrible things and a very stronge instinct to live that kicks in, in short when people see no reason or purpose of going on the majority will go on any way.

Atheists for example live for the immediate, they are devoid of spirituality in the sense of an ultimate purpose in life and a hope for perfect justice. They will in my experience then fill their empty lives with the material money, sex, gratification, pleasurable pursuits (family, travel, hobbies) or become bitter and make railing against a God they do not believe is there major past time (as one poster here so eloquently put it "You prayed to the air and are angry the air ignored you). And when tragedy hits and there is no hope of justice, will simply accept the unacceptable and like I said go on living or at least breathing and eating.

For some of us, living like animals - I'm not saying atheists are animals - but for some of us being content with shelter, food and reproduction, like an animal, devoid ultimately of purpose, is no existence at all, but once one has been made to accept that there IS no hope, one must accepts to live without hope. What else is there for them to do?

The Christian calling is to find the one in a thousand that yearn for more. I has been my greatest joy and immense privilege to have a share in sharing what I know with such ones



JW

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 44 by Divine Insight]

In that case you either don't believe in Jesus, or you simply don't believe that the Christian Gospels correctly convey what Jesus supposedly taught. But if that's the case then where would you find the truth of what Jesus supposedly taught?

Maybe in this book?

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

The only problem I have whit this book is the universe...the rest seems to be in order.

But let's put this book aside.

Because my view on the bible is very clear.

I can see that consciousness (I am) has chosen this body as a vehicle. To me that make sense. Because I would not like to have any other body. I understand the value of this body. Its a perfect match.

How this body came to be...I do not know.

But I know it was not 6000 years ago.

The human history is much older than that.

I'm not suggesting that you should. I simply pointed out that Buddhism addresses the concerns you appear to have in your post #41.

But what is buddhas answer to a temporary life?

That's a nice dream, but where is there any evidence that such an imagined place actually exists?

I know I am capable of living in peace whit other people and I know other people are capable of doing the same thing, so that is not just a nice dream. It has something to do whit reality. The only thing we need is a place that never cease to exist.

Is there such a place?

I beleive there is something after death...anything else would be stupid of me.

Because I like to be alive. How can I continue to live if there is nothing after death?

To say there is nothing after death would be like commiting suicide.

To continue to live I therefore has to say there is something after death. But is there something after death?

Whit regard to evidence of the unseen world then there is a book called "Some psychic Experiences". Unfortunately it has not been translatet into english.

In this book there are different cases that to me seems like evidence of the unseen world.

Did the writter make those cases up?

That I do not beleive because he was a truthfull man.

He just wrote what they had experience on the request from people who had read the book "Towards the Light".

Are there not cases out there in english?

Things that are very hard to explain whitout talking about an afterlife?

Here in denmark there has just been a television show whit some "ordinary" people and some spirituel people. In this show a politician was confronted ( by a psychic medium) whit things nobody else than he knew (according to him self).

Mindblowing he said.

After that experience he was convinced of the afterlife.

I have only read an article about it and have not seen the episode.

What are we to say about such a case? Assuming there was no cheating...

Before we start talking about a door to an imaginary place shouldn't we first produce evidence that the place exists?

How would you do that?

Why do we need to believe in anything that we can't actually know?

Because we can´t actually know it? But is that not relative? Today we beleive there is not a meteor on its way to earth and tomorrow we know it (because we have developed an instrument that tells us there is nothing on its way).

Why beleive anything before we know it? Is that the question?

We can also ask what we might do to please Santa Claus so he will be sure to bring us gifts next December. Do you think that might help?

I was just saying that we might should do something ourself before the door open...maybe find a key or take our shoes of or something else...

I have favorite fairy tales too. That doesn't make them true.

What makes anything true?

As far as I am aware both my cats are also conscious as well as the wildlife that often visit my yard.

My fault

I meant self awareness and so on.

The animals are not in the same category as we are.

And that is a good thing.

Because who would like to have a cat body or dolphin body or snake body?

So you feel that reality has to be as you like? I think it would be great if reality would be as I perfer too. But I see no reason to think that this should be the case. In fact, the idea that the universe would cater to my personal wants is a pretty self-centric ideology isn't it?

In fact, if the universe was going to cater to my personal wants why isn't it doing this already?

Has the universe not been giving you a proper body? Would you like another body? Maybe the universe is capable of doing that to

Some people are more willing to give up their life for a good cause than others. All humans are clearly not the same in how they think or what they might be willing to do or sacrifice.

That is right.

But I would like to think that most people are willing to sacrifice the little time they have left to save a lot of people from horrible things.

You'll need to define your terms. I certainly have a heart as I wouldn't be alive without one. And I play the saxophone so I probably have a little "soul" too.

I will try this one.

Because if there only is this temporary life then we can only go on whitout a heart, so if you have a heart, then there can not only be this temporary life

Again, you'll need to define what you mean by "heaven". Are you using this term to simply represent your own personal imaginary paradise? Or are you using the term to refer to the heaven described in a specific religious doctrine. Keep in mind that in the Biblical Heaven Satan along with a bunch of angels apparently weren't very happy as they supposedly rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven.

So apparently there are not only problems in heaven be even actual wars. As the rumors God Satan won over a full third of God's angels before being cast out of heaven. I always wonder if he had won over two-thirds of God's angels would that have meant the Satan would have won the war against God?

Does God's power and authority over reality depend on how many angels he has in his army?

Interesting questions don't you think?

None the less, in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, heaven cannot be a perfect paradise, for if it were then Satan could have never become corrupt and have been cast out. So apparently there is a problem with the Biblical "Heaven".

Hopefully if you are imagining your own personal imaginary "heaven" you can do better than the people who made up the Bible.

Still though the question remains: If the idea is to live for eternity in a perfect heaven then what are you doing here? Why didn't the creator just create a perfect heaven and be done with it? Why bother creating this disgusting universe that not too many people seem to like very much? What would be the point to that?

So you don´t think a fall should be possible? It should not be possible to create a world like this? How would you understand goodness whitout evil? Light whitout darkness?

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 41 by Waterfall]

I don't know if I agree on the point that people will do terrible things if they have not hope. God created us with a consciense that stops most people from doing terrible things and a very stronge instinct to live that kicks in, in short when people see no reason or purpose of going on the majority will go on any way.

Atheists for example live for the immediate, they are devoid of spirituality in the sense of an ultimate purpose in life and a hope for perfect justice. They will in my experience then fill their empty lives with the material money, sex, gratification, pleasurable pursuits (family, travel, hobbies) or become bitter and make railing against a God they do not believe is there major past time (as one poster here so eloquently put it "You prayed to the air and are angry the air ignored you). And when tragedy hits and there is no hope of justice, will simply accept the unacceptable and like I said go on living or at least breathing and eating.

For some of us, living like animals - I'm not saying atheists are animals - but for some of us being content with shelter, food and reproduction, like an animal, devoid ultimately of purpose, is no existence at all, but once one has been made to accept that there IS no hope, one must accepts to live without hope. What else is there for them to do?

The Christian calling is to find the one in a thousand that yearn for more. I has been my greatest joy and immense privilege to have a share in sharing what I know with such ones



JW

Terrible things are going on - everybody can see that.

I don´t think atheist are whitout hope (or a brain ).

They to have hope for the future...that the world will become a better place for everybody.

But who can wait for that to happen? Is that not the question? A temporary being do not have all the time in the world, so what are they waiting for? A miracle?

I am just trying to understand things.

[JehovahsWitness]

I don´t think atheist are whitout hope .... They to have hope for the future...that the world will become a better place for everybody.

There is difference between a hope and "wishful thinking". The fantacy that humans can solve mankind's problems is just that, a dream based on nothing but wishful thinking. Any examination of human history or even our present situation leads to the undeniable fact that humans are incapable of solving even the most fundamental problems we face. Indeed given enough power we seem hell bent on actually destroying ourselves as quickly as possible.

Take world hunger. The planet produces more than enough food to feed everyone. Technology means we can now fly to the moon and monitor and transport to any spot in the planet at a bewildering speed. Still children die every minuite for lack of bread, milk clean water. Certainly we have brilliant minds and have made amazing technical and medical advances but these seem to be like plugging our fingers in a damaged dam rather than repairing the dam. The cracks will bring the whole thing down even if we can do lazar surgery in Los Angeles.

To illustrate: You see a man attempt to jump a fense, he tries once, he fails. He tries again, he fails, he tries a thousand times, he fails as time to goes and he tries again and again failing everytime, progressively getting worse not bettter. Eventually not only can he not jump the fense but he can hardly walk. Would you call it realistic to "hope" that he will eventually not only jump the fense but set a world record? Or would you call it an unrealistic fantacy?

People are brainwashed from childhood to be cheerleaders in the "Yay we can do it" propaganda chorus, so much so that they don't want to accept what is self evident. We cannot in fact do it at all. On a small scale we can succesfully navigate life and do good, but we cannot establish a global system that solves human problems and when we try it ends in corruption, war, oppression and suffering.

This is not pessimism it is being realistic and facing the facts. It is not called hope to bury ones head in the ideological sand and deny a reality because it seems too horrible to contemplate. "Well else are we gonna believe?!" is not reason to make believe a solution is there when that actual thing has been proven, not to be the solution but the problem. Humans cannot be the solution because we are the problem.

[polonius]

otseng wrote:

In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content.

QUESTION: Then you agree with the first few chapters of Matthew's gospel that Jesus was born during the lifetime of King Herod the Great (died in 4 BC) and apparently born again during the 6 AD Census of Judea as in Luke's first few chapters.?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]

To add to my friend's post. We as Witness even go from door to door looking for folks that want a real change. Yet we are looking for people that are willing to change themselves. Looking for folks that not only want to see change but are willing to act on it. We know that we can't change the world, all the corruption and greed that keeps the world as it is. That change is for Jehovah to make. However, we can do things locally for those around us. The Bible says faith without works is dead. We are not waiting for politicians to make law to make people act better. We actively look for people that don't wait for this current system of world governments to get it's act together. We can't change them, we can change ourselves in accord with what God finds good.

When we bring this message to people, are are not met with open arms but in many cases, 'No thank you' or in few cases, slammed doors. Yet we keep trying, much to some people's delight but to many people's dismay. They are not happy with the way things are but they are not willing to make the change in themselves to make any thing around them better. Sad really....

Poor atheist look at the failure of religion and no wonder they don't believe in God. I wouldn't either if didn't know that God is not in control of the current so-called religious led governments. That is why we see more and more people demanding religion be removed from government. However, they think that is going help....it will not so long as it is people that are the head of the government. The Soviet Union was an atheist government, how did that turn out? China is too and look what is happening in Honk Kong. People keep thinking maybe one day one of these ideas will work but history tells us they do not. To keep trying is to bang one's head into a brick wall. ](*,)