Goodness/Evil and the Trinity

[liamconnor]

It is an old debate among theologians whether actions are good simply because God commanded them, or whether God commanded them because they are good.

With the first, we run into the obvious problem: moral relativism. God could've commanded men to steal, murder, cheat etc. Had he, these would be 'good'.

On the other hand, if God commanded things because they were good, this poses a problem for God's sovereignty. Is there a principle which even God is subject to?

How do we get around this dilemma? Is it a red herring? Is it unanswerable?

I propose there is a solution in Christian theology: namely the doctrine of the Trinity.

From John's gospel we know that the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father.

I propose that it is from this divine core, the 'essence' of God, that derive all ethics.

For if God commanded hate instead of love, then the divine economy would necessitate that the Father hates the Son and the Son hates the father...which would of course result in the annihilation of God himself, and therefore all reality.

Thus the Trinitarian nature of Godhead requires reciprocal love: the concern for the well-being of the 'other'.

[tam]

Peace to you Liam,

"God is love" does not require the trinity.

God loving the Son and the Son loving the Father (two beings) does not require the trinity.


Those actions that come from love (which love God is), does not require a trinity.


So I don't think the trinity is in the least required to solve those dilemmas that you mention.


God being love would solve them all on its own.



If God commanded men to steal, murder, cheat, etc... then God would have been commanding men to do things that are against Him. Against what is good (since Christ also said that His Father is the One who is good). Yes?



Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 2 by tam]

God being love would solve them all on its own.

Love requires an object; do you hold to the view that has creation co-eternal with God? For unless there is always a something for God to love, he cannot be said to be love.

[tam]

[Replying to post 2 by tam]

God being love would solve them all on its own.

Love requires an object; do you hold to the view that has creation co-eternal with God? For unless there is always a something for God to love, he cannot be said to be love.

God loves Himself. Why would He not? We are supposed to love ourselves also. How else could we love our neighbors as ourselves if we do not first love ourselves?


If God is love, then God would certainly love Himself.


This 'love requires an object' is yet another thing that man says... but I see no reason to accept that it is true.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 4 by tam]

I think its pretty fair to say that Jesus commands us to love others and has very little to say on self love.

Love of self is narcissism.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is an old debate among theologians whether actions are good simply because God commanded them, or whether God commanded them because they are good.

In the absolute sense only God is in a position to say that "something is good". The expression "because it is good ... " is meaningless without an ultimate standard of what is good or not. Therefore in the absolute the question itself is gibberish, since an action cannot be "simply good" without God deciding it is so.

We, in our limited experience can say an action is good but the the reality is what we are really saying is that we "think" its good, we "believe" it's good "feel" its good... whether is IS good will depend not on our perception of that action but in the reality of that action and who is in a position to judge reality in the absolute except Him that knows everything. Only someone that knows everything can be in a postion to declare something good; everyone else is speaking relatively whether the know it or not.

Whether God "commands" a given action is irrelevant to the moral purity of that action. Something is not good because God commands it to be done, it is good because he assesses it as such. A good action would remain "good" (by his assessment, which is the only assessment ultimately that counts) whether he kept that assessment to himself or commanded it to be done.


-- Luke 18:19

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 4 by tam]

It's rare to find a person that is good that loves themselves. Generally they are narcissistic. If we are made in the image of God then is God narcissistic?

Self worth comes from this. God values me enough that he would die for me. Who can doubt their self worth after that and who can doubt that love for other is the only true love.

Self love is a trifle compared to a love that is so great that it covers even enemies.

[tam]

[Replying to post 4 by tam]

It's rare to find a person that is good that loves themselves.

How can we love our neighbors as ourselves (the second greatest commandment) if we do not love ourselves?

Whoever is teaching that a good person cannot love themselves... they are in serious error.


**

Regardless, we are not God.

God is good. God is also love. And from God's GREAT love - He brought forth LIFE (Christ -> the light of the world-> let there be light), though whom all other things were created. This is the understanding given to me by my Lord.

How is that love narcissistic?

Generally they are narcissistic. If we are made in the image of God then is God narcissistic?

We are not in the image of God. Adam was made in the image of God. We are in the image of Adam after He fell.


Christ is the Image of God. We are being made over so as to be in the image of Christ.

And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.



But you cannot look at US to see God. We must look at Christ to see God... because CHRIST is the image of God.

Self worth comes from this. God values me enough that he would die for me. Who can doubt their self worth after that...

I agree that Him sacrificing His Son (and that Son giving His life) for us, shows us that we are indeed loved.

But let me ask you a question:

If God hated himself (or did not value Himself), could He love who or what came from Him? Could He value who or what came from Him if He did not value Himself?

... and who can doubt that love for other is the only true love.

I can.

For the reasons stated. And because God IS love. How could He not have loved Himself?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 7 by tam]

I think you misunderstand the golden rule.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself is commanded because in our selfish wickedness we know how to look after ourselves. So God encourages/commands us to use that selfishness as our guide. Self love is not to be proud of but it is a guide for how to treat others.

Eg

We know how to put food in our mouths now try doing it for others.

We know we want to be treated like royalty so now treat others as royalty.

--

If we are not made in the image of God how can we relate to God?

For instance if I say this chocolate is sweet. You know and I know what chocolate is and tastes like and that this chocolate is sweeter than usual. We are in the same image.

But if God says chocolate is good and you deny that you and God are in the same image then how can you make sense of that statement or the Bible's many claims? God's words have no meaning unless we can relate to God.

[tam]

Peace again to you Wootah!

[Replying to post 7 by tam]

I think you misunderstand the golden rule.

The second greatest commandment, you mean?

I don't think I do.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself is commanded because in our selfish wickedness we know how to look after ourselves.

And who teaches this?

So God encourages/commands us to use that selfishness as our guide.

God encourages us to use selfishness as our guide?


I don't see that making sense, Wootah. I also don't know where Christ OR God taught that.

Self love is not to be proud of but it is a guide for how to treat others.

Love is not proud (or boastful). So okay...

I would suggest that love (period) is a guide on how to treat others. That is the command that Christ gave. Love God (with whole heart, etc), love neighbor (as oneself), love enemy (so as to be a son of your father in heaven), and the new command: love one another as Christ loves us.

We know how to put food in our mouths now try doing it for others.

This would be getting into the golden rule, yes.

If we were hungry, we would want someone to feed us; so we should feed others who are hungry.


**

Earlier you said:

It's rare to find a person that is good that loves themselves. Generally they are narcissistic.

Meaning you accept that it is not impossible. Just rare.

I think we should be able to agree that God is not 'general'. He is certainly rare; unique. If some rare good people can love themselves, then surely God could be good and love Himself?

Seeing as we are sinful and God is not?


--

If we are not made in the image of God how can we relate to God?

I do not understand the problem that you are seeing?

Didn't God send His Son so that we could know God? Know the truth about and of God? Because that Son is His image, His reflection, the perfect representation of His being?

God is also love and we can relate to love, yes?

(God is a father who loves His children; and so parents who love their children can relate to God as well.)

Regardless, your comment was:

"If we are narcissistic, then does that mean God is narcissistic?"

Of course it does not mean that because we do not reveal God. I am sure you do not mean to suggest that God is also hard-hearted, selfish, fearful, cowardly, etc, etc. But that is where the reasoning you presented would invariably lead. Because those are all things that we can be. But just because we can be something (including narcissistic) does not mean that this is also what God is.


Christ is the One who reveals God.




Peace again to you Wootah and to your household!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy