Goodness/Evil and the Trinity

[liamconnor]

It is an old debate among theologians whether actions are good simply because God commanded them, or whether God commanded them because they are good.

With the first, we run into the obvious problem: moral relativism. God could've commanded men to steal, murder, cheat etc. Had he, these would be 'good'.

On the other hand, if God commanded things because they were good, this poses a problem for God's sovereignty. Is there a principle which even God is subject to?

How do we get around this dilemma? Is it a red herring? Is it unanswerable?

I propose there is a solution in Christian theology: namely the doctrine of the Trinity.

From John's gospel we know that the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father.

I propose that it is from this divine core, the 'essence' of God, that derive all ethics.

For if God commanded hate instead of love, then the divine economy would necessitate that the Father hates the Son and the Son hates the father...which would of course result in the annihilation of God himself, and therefore all reality.

Thus the Trinitarian nature of Godhead requires reciprocal love: the concern for the well-being of the 'other'.

[Wootah]

[Replying to tam]

Hi Tam

What I am saying is that God knows that self love is the worst kind of love and I would probably be willing to call it the opposite of love or at least the most minimal form.

The golden rule is perhaps the best demonstration of God making good from bad. It is saying apply your selfishness to others. It's the best wake up.

Does God ever command us to love ourselves? Can you think of a verse?

When I say it's rare, I'm trying to give you ground to reconsider your views. Hmm yeah it is rare to find a good person that is self loving. How rare? Possibly non existant.

__

On the image of God that might be off topic. But it's quite important theologically and philosophically. Can two people understand each other if they have nothing in common?

[ttruscott]

Thus the Trinitarian nature of Godhead requires reciprocal love: the concern for the well-being of the 'other'.

I also like to point out that the nature of GOD as love forces the consideration of the Trinity since a lover with no object for his love is not loving at all, that is, HE can't be said to be loving before a person was created for HIM to love, that is, GOD is then not LOVE but only loving.

We understand that GOD is the divine Unity of 3 divine persons and the strongest element / characteristic of their Unity is their Love for each other.

[ttruscott]

God is good.

May I suggest that GOD is good means that HE is the measure of goodness HIMself. If it conforms to HIS nature, to what HE thinks is right, it is good. If it does not conform to HIM it is evil. When HE declares something to be good, it is not suddenly good by means of that declaration but HE is declaring that it is good because it conforms to HIS moral nature.

That is why HE cannot create evil nor evil people as sinners inheriting Adam's sin.

[tam]

God is good.

May I suggest that GOD is good means that HE is the measure of goodness HIMself. If it conforms to HIS nature, to what HE thinks is right, it is good. If it does not conform to HIM it is evil. When HE declares something to be good, it is not suddenly good by means of that declaration but HE is declaring that it is good because it conforms to HIS moral nature.

That is why HE cannot create evil nor evil people as sinners inheriting Adam's sin.

I would not argue with that. I wonder why people don't consider that original sin simply means the original sin that was committed?

Regardless, what we inherited from Adam was a world now in subjection to death (since the world had been given to Adam to govern, and Adam subjected it and all life in it, including his own offspring, to death). And we inherited the long garment of skin (this flesh with ITS blood), that has sin (error) and death in it.

But not to punish us. It is a natural consequences (like flesh comes from like flesh). It also hides us from our enemies in the spirit realm (at least until such a time as we reveal ourselves as being sons of our Father in heaven, through Christ).

God is the One who has ensured that we have a Way to come home, and that we have a home to come home TO.


Peace to you Ted, and to your household,
your servant an a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 2 by tam]

God being love would solve them all on its own.

Love requires an object; do you hold to the view that has creation co-eternal with God? For unless there is always a something for God to love, he cannot be said to be love.

In physics, potential energy is the energy that an object has due to its position in a force field or that a system has due to the configuration of its parts. It is no less energy while existing in the potential state than when existing in other forms such as a kinetic or radiant state.

Love is comparable to energy in that same way. Love as the noun agape' is a state of being, and thus a potential. There must be a potential before there can be any active expression. It cannot be any other way.

On that basis IMHO it is not true that love cannot exist without an object, All the object allows is for the potential to be proven. But love as yet not proven does not prove the potential is not there. Perhaps God's love existed in a potential or deliberative state long before he chose to set his love into motion. He may have taken that time to deliberate and perfect his love before setting it in motion, and in that way avoided having to experiment with lives while perfecting his love.

Yes, I know that some(if not many) feel that God does experiment so as to learn and they feel that this is cruel of God by reason of how it plays with lives. I don't agree with that for a number of reasons. First and foremost, if God does yet learn he does not do so at our expense. He has given us the freedom to choose what we will do rather than forcing us. And we could know nothing at all about love if not for him.

I do believe that God is able to yet learn new things. So are (or, were, if they are now deceased) our parents. Are we so ungrateful that we would see our parents as cruel for what they did not yet know? If not, then why would we see our greatest parent as cruel for that same reason? I would think we would only if we were ungrateful for all the good he has showered us with despite our being stubborn children.

[Justin108]

God is good.

May I suggest that GOD is good means that HE is the measure of goodness HIMself. If it conforms to HIS nature, to what HE thinks is right, it is good. If it does not conform to HIM it is evil. When HE declares something to be good, it is not suddenly good by means of that declaration but HE is declaring that it is good because it conforms to HIS moral nature.

That is why HE cannot create evil nor evil people as sinners inheriting Adam's sin.

Colossians 1:16

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

[Left Site]

God is good.

May I suggest that GOD is good means that HE is the measure of goodness HIMself. If it conforms to HIS nature, to what HE thinks is right, it is good. If it does not conform to HIM it is evil. When HE declares something to be good, it is not suddenly good by means of that declaration but HE is declaring that it is good because it conforms to HIS moral nature.

That is why HE cannot create evil nor evil people as sinners inheriting Adam's sin.

Colossians 1:16

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

You do realize, do you not, that what is said at Isaiah 45: 7 is limited by the context to mean that as reward for Israel's faithfulness God creates light by which they can see a hopeful future, and God creates peace so that they are able to dwell in happiness instead of fear. And, conversely, for Israel's unfaithfulness God creates darkness for them so that they see no hope and god creates evil as in the root meaning of the Hebrew word there used "spoilage" so that they more fully feel the consequences of failing to listen and engaging in unfaithfulness. You do realize this, right?

So then you do realize that Isaiah 45: 7 is not saying that God creates all that is evil but "just evil", or in other words 'evil that serves the cause of justice.' Ponder that against the 32nd chapter of Deuteronomy.

Also consider psalms 28: 1-5

Oh, and by all means consider the local context in the chapters leading up to Isaiah 45.

[ttruscott]

God is good.

May I suggest that GOD is good means that HE is the measure of goodness HIMself. If it conforms to HIS nature, to what HE thinks is right, it is good. If it does not conform to HIM it is evil. When HE declares something to be good, it is not suddenly good by means of that declaration but HE is declaring that it is good because it conforms to HIS moral nature.

That is why HE cannot create evil nor evil people as sinners inheriting Adam's sin.

Colossians 1:16

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

You do realize, do you not, that what is said at Isaiah 45: 7 is limited by the context to mean that as reward for Israel's faithfulness God creates light by which they can see a hopeful future, and God creates peace so that they are able to dwell in happiness instead of fear. And, conversely, for Israel's unfaithfulness God creates darkness for them so that they see no hope and god creates evil as in the root meaning of the Hebrew word there used "spoilage" so that they more fully feel the consequences of failing to listen and engaging in unfaithfulness. You do realize this, right?

He's been told as much many times...

So then you do realize that Isaiah 45: 7 is not saying that God creates all that is evil but "just evil", or in other words 'evil that serves the cause of justice.' Ponder that against the 32nd chapter of Deuteronomy.

The Hebrew r�‘ also conotes calamity and disaster as judgments in English which the ra ra bandwagon refuses to consider.

[Justin108]

God is good.

May I suggest that GOD is good means that HE is the measure of goodness HIMself. If it conforms to HIS nature, to what HE thinks is right, it is good. If it does not conform to HIM it is evil. When HE declares something to be good, it is not suddenly good by means of that declaration but HE is declaring that it is good because it conforms to HIS moral nature.

That is why HE cannot create evil nor evil people as sinners inheriting Adam's sin.

Colossians 1:16

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

You do realize, do you not, that what is said at Isaiah 45: 7 is limited by the context to mean that as reward for Israel's faithfulness God creates light by which they can see a hopeful future, and God creates peace so that they are able to dwell in happiness instead of fear. And, conversely, for Israel's unfaithfulness God creates darkness for them so that they see no hope and god creates evil as in the root meaning of the Hebrew word there used "spoilage" so that they more fully feel the consequences of failing to listen and engaging in unfaithfulness. You do realize this, right?

So then you do realize that Isaiah 45: 7 is not saying that God creates all that is evil but "just evil", or in other words 'evil that serves the cause of justice.' Ponder that against the 32nd chapter of Deuteronomy.

Also consider psalms 28: 1-5

Oh, and by all means consider the local context in the chapters leading up to Isaiah 45.

Fine. Scrap Isaiah if you'd like. There's still Colossians

[Justin108]

God is good.

May I suggest that GOD is good means that HE is the measure of goodness HIMself. If it conforms to HIS nature, to what HE thinks is right, it is good. If it does not conform to HIM it is evil. When HE declares something to be good, it is not suddenly good by means of that declaration but HE is declaring that it is good because it conforms to HIS moral nature.

That is why HE cannot create evil nor evil people as sinners inheriting Adam's sin.

Colossians 1:16

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

You do realize, do you not, that what is said at Isaiah 45: 7 is limited by the context to mean that as reward for Israel's faithfulness God creates light by which they can see a hopeful future, and God creates peace so that they are able to dwell in happiness instead of fear. And, conversely, for Israel's unfaithfulness God creates darkness for them so that they see no hope and god creates evil as in the root meaning of the Hebrew word there used "spoilage" so that they more fully feel the consequences of failing to listen and engaging in unfaithfulness. You do realize this, right?

He's been told as much many times...

Oh have I? Please be so kind and send me the link